Why a M7

[Allen Herbert]

Sorry to sound rude but i get fed up with all this gadget techonology,

when really it only gets in the way,and encourages us at to become

button pressers.

[nesrani]

My computer is clockwork, actually.

[Allen Herbert]

Shame is not you could use it anywhere.nice little battery bag at...

any colour.

[michael_b.1]

Ok Allen, that's exactly my opinion but I don't think that 'button

pressers' will buy an M7 and if they do, it's certainly not for

taking pictures but in place of a new cartier watch and if they

contribue by this way to the survive of the Leica company, it's ok

for me. Hope M6 will be continued ... and WE will never become button

pressers.

[alain_maestrini]

Probably many of us have seen the documentary on CBS about 09/11.

These highly emotional images were recorded by a all digital video

camera. I am still meditating about the possibility of modern

electronics under extremely severe conditions. I am not sure my M6s

could have resisted to such a stress and still record image...

[jerry_pfile]

Sparkie,

 

<p>

 

I believe that when you turn AE to off on the M7, you're left with

virtually an M6 TTL albeit with an electronically controlled

mechanical horizontally traveling cloth fp shutter. Otherwise why

would they still have included the two opposing arrowheads and the

center red dot in the VF? What use would they be? How would you

expose a subject contrary to what the either the AE mode reads, or

what it reads in the current M6 (TTL or otherwise).

 

<p>

 

As he has had one hands on for a week or two, perhaps Lucian can put

that issue to rest.

 

<p>

 

On the Weston meter. I use my Master V occasionally with the

incident attachment. However I hold little hope that when the

selenium cell goes replacements will be available. Particularly a

few years down the road. If the market isn't there, whos going to

bother?

 

<p>

 

Best,

 

<p>

 

Jerry

[xavier_dalfort]

Yes you are wrong Allen.

 

<p>

 

Don't forget Leica is a compny, they create things which are sold.

The more they sell the happier the workers are.

 

<p>

 

I would not think it is worth to jeopardise a whole company to keep a

myth.

 

<p>

 

But photography does not sell good these days. A friend, the street

corner photographer says all the profession is suffering.

 

<p>

 

Just a comment: if you car has ABS brake system and power steering,

sell it, you never know, it can go wrong.... If you have a mobile,

forget it, it will never work properly.

 

<p>

 

In other ways, consummer electronics have been better lately.

Cheers.

X.

[eliot]

Yes. And when there is a power outage, Allen Herbert will probably

walk around in the dark because he doesn't trust his battery operated

flashlight. There are now three inane posts on the same subject.

Enough is enough. Can we raise the caliber of the discussion on this

site. It's the 21st century. Batteries are here to stay.

[Allen Herbert]

Where are we going when a Leica user(MAYBE)compares photography with

mobile phones,Abs brakes.Keep clicking my friend one day you will get

a goodun.Ha!

[Allen Herbert]

And the Myth ,which is not a myth, has kept it going.

[jerry_pfile]

Allen and Michael,

 

<p>

 

I have used Leica cameras since 1960, and during that time, in each

of the over 60,000 plus images I have captured, it was necessary

to "press the button" for each and every one! Don't think that makes

me a "button presser" in the context you envision.

 

<p>

 

Please take the time to review the history of Leitz/Leica, going back

even before they made their first photographic tool. Whatever they

have produced, they have always endeavored to fashion the most

precision of tools that they were capable of for its stated purpose,

starting with their microscopes, and continuing through to the bodies

and lenses of today.

 

<p>

 

During the whole of that time, they have never introduced a

revolutionary product. Rather they have chosen to take the

evolutionary road, and the only time they stepped off that path (the

M5) they learned their lesson quickly. There only goals are to

survive to enable them to continue that heritage.

 

<p>

 

Perhaps the question should be reversed. What do each of you think

should have been done to the M6TTL as a next "evolutionary" step? Or

do you think they should now or ever, have done nothing at all?

 

<p>

 

Jerry

[Allen Herbert]

As i have already said with a option to go fully manual.

[msitaraman]

"M7 seems to defeat the whole idea of leica Ms...Leica need to read

their own brochure.It seems to me they are loosing their way."

 

<p>

 

Allen, I agree with you completely.

 

<p>

 

Tacking on a little AE, without making it the best, most ergonomic

and fluid AE is a hesitant, pointless little step.

[ray_moth]

Were the same kind of doubts expressed during the evolution of the R

cameras? After all, apart from the R 6/6.2, R cameras have always

been battery-dependent and offer much more automation than the M7,

with both aperture priority and shutter priority AE, variable program

mode, as well as electronically-timed manual mode. Did they come in

for the same amount of criticism, or do RF users have different

tastes from SLR users? The R6.2, with its all-mechanical shutter and

ability to operate without batteries if need be, has proved to be so

unpopular that Leica has discontinued its production; yet the all-

electronic R8, which is absolutely dependent on batteries, is still

in production. No manual speeds on the R8!

[mark_tomalty]

Why an M7?

 

<p>

 

Because without it,and other evolutions,Leica,in my opinion

won't survive. There are too many photographers out there who

want,for each their own reasons,cameras with more features.

If Leica continues to ignore them they're doomed.Companies such as

Contax have taken a significant amount of this segment away from

Leica and with it,much needed capital to remain viable. Likewise,

they would be making a huge mistake if they ceased production

of the M6.

[michael_b.1]

Jerry,

 

<p>

 

don't misunderstand me. I like the M7 and as soon as possible I will

get one. With button-presser I mean those people who come in my photo-

store. Many of them have expensive P+S cameras like Contax T and when

they ask me about the Leica M6 I have to tell them that they better

take a Contax G2 because they don't even know what is shutter speed

and aperture. If I sell an M6, they will never make a good picture

and won't come back to my store.

[sparkie]

I always thought if you want a fully automated, bells 'n' whistles

Leica you get the R8. If you want a fully mechanical Leica you get the

M6TTL. That up till now was logical and clear (IMHO). Now with the M7,

its a little itsy, bitsy. Sort of like a blind man who has lost his

cane and doesnt know to go forward or backwards or stay-put. Instead

has gone sideways. Dont mean to sound sarcasatic, but there is one

truth, and that is you can't please everybody all of the time with one

product.

 

<p>

 

Hi Jerry,

I use a Weston Euromaster, and these selenium batteries are supposed to

last between 20-25 years. If it dies, it dies completely and not a

half-assed reading. So you will KNOW when it has died and gone to

selenium heaven. The company here in the UK that makes them still in

the guise of the Weston Euromaster II will replace, check and calibrate

your oldie for a reasonable price. These meters have gone to the north

pole and back and still keep reading.

 

<p>

 

Best,

[Allen Herbert]

.I WOULD HAVE SOLD THEM A M6, AND GIVEN THEM A GOOD PHOTO BOOK(FREE)

AND MARKED THE CHAPTER ON AP AND SP.THEY WOULD HAVE GOT A LOT MORE

OUT OF PHOTOGRAPHY.AND YOU WOULD HAVE GOT A VERY HAPPY LONG TERM

CUSTOMER.TO MY MIND ANYONE WHO WANTS TO SPEND THAT MUCH ON

PHOTOGRAPHY DESERVES THE EFFORT.UNLESS THEY JUST WANT A JEWEL TO WEAR

[nesrani]

Ohmigod, he's started shouting now...

[Allen Herbert]

Oops must have pressed the wrong button,activated one of the Strutting

Peacocks.

[fran__ois_p._weill]

Gentlemen,

 

<p>

 

Excuse me to intrude in this discussion.

 

<p>

 

It seems to me two different questions are mixed here and that's why

the argument is getting so harsh and nobody seems to be

understanding each other.

 

<p>

 

In the messages of Mr. Allen Herbert I see a "philosophical"

statement more than a technical one. For him, the M camera should

remain what it was because it represents the lack of any kind of

automatism and the real masterization of photography bt the man (or

the woman) behind the camera. This I can't agree with nor condemn

either. Just because each photographer facing his subjects has his

own method and what is important is what is on the print at the end.

 

<p>

 

But I can't agree with the old and, in my opinion, completely

obsolete debate about the use of batteries.

 

<p>

 

Someone in this thread made a revealing goof in formulatiing his

opinion about the alleged consequence of being battery dependent.

 

<p>

 

He confused battery and film... If he, or anybody else, could tell

me why it is less difficult to find spare film in remote areas than

it is to find spare batteries, please let me know...

 

<p>

 

Going to such remote areas you must bring with you the spare films

in sufficient quantity and I see few problems (moreover with the

small volume they represent for a M7 or even for an Hexar RF like

mine when compared to what should be necessary for a modern

motorized reflex SLR) why it is "sooooooo" difficult to get the

necessary quantity of spare batteries. So that point seems to me

irrelevant to consider as a liability to condemn the new M7. By the

mechanical operation is not a guarantee of being ever able to

operate properly... One year ago my faithful M5 had a broken shutter

curtain mechanism in the midst of a picture scession and there was

no way to fix it immediately (finally it ended its eventful life,

the camera being economically impossible to repair at all). Nowadays

(I knew the time it was not so, I'm an old photographer) electronic

components had proven to be as reliable as mechanical ones. So I

think the debate is totally pointless. We are not talking about the

interest of an old fashioned motorcycle used in remote areas and

which could be fixed by the local blacksmith, obviously something

which give it a decisive advantage from a modern all electronic

regulated state of the art new one. We are talking of a very high

precision device which mechanical or electronical can't be fixed

anyway in such remote areas... To be fair the only likely problem

you can have with a battery operated camera is cold weather

operation. But since many years, it has been addresed by most

serious manufacturers with separate battery packs you can put in

your warm pocket... So it is no more something technically unsolved.

Finally, you'd better remember the M6 is ALREADY battery dependent

as far as its metering system is concerned... So Mr. Herbert, why

don't you chose an M4 or even an M3 here is a real all mechanical

camera with no battery at all... By the way why not chose an Ur-

Leica by the way as the coupled rangefinder is not indispensable the

photog. may in fact appreciate the distances by himself doesn't he?

And you'll get an even more reliable camera because it will lack a

feature that - after all - can be a source of malfunction :))).

 

<p>

 

Metering... Someone mentioned the Weston meter with selenium... Not

battery dependent of course... I had the occasion to use a Weston

and no doubt it was a fine meter. BUT, if you try nowadays to find a

Weston which the selenium element is still in proper useable

condition you might have to travel a long way... Most are definitely

dead as the selenium element is not due to last forever... So to say

battery dependence for metering will be something you'd better get

used to anyway. I don't know any manufacturer currently producing a

selenium meter today.

 

<p>

 

Considering these elements, is the way taken by Leica a reasonable

one?

 

<p>

 

My answer is definitely YES... As a candid shot camera "by

excellence", to have an AE mode if required (remember this not a

mandatory automatic camera) is a real "plus" Leica M USERS had

strived for a (too) long time ! ...

 

<p>

 

Did they succeed in upgrading the original design a way it both

brings the M camera at the forefront of small format cameras as was

once the Leica rangefinder series and so justifiy a very heavy price?

 

<p>

 

My answer is NO... Sadly, but firmly NO.

 

<p>

 

Up to and including the most dispelled M5 (this is pure injustice

considering things from a user's point of view), Leica was ever

including top notch state of the art features to their M camera

bodies... Thereafter they were unable to cope with the state of the

art in camera bodies and maintained there position because they were

the only company to produce a rangefinder body with interchangeable

lens (these of an unsurpassed quality by the way)which concept is

the only one to keep the small format camera specific advantages for

what they really are worth: limited volume, capabilities to operate

in small contrast, low light conditions at full aperture with a

perfect focusing no AF could match in such situations, silence. Add

to this (unfortunately for the prices we pay for) the snobs

and "collectors"... The M6 was only a kind of attempt to put things

back on the tracks with TTl metering. Almost 15 years after near to

ALL the other 35 mm cameras had already included such a feature.

 

<p>

 

Unfortunately, the much awaited and hoped for M7 - as a good camera

it might be intrinsically - is still a latecomer. The only points it

is really superior to my Hexar RF (if you excepts the 0.58 variant)

is a better finder with more effective base of measure for the

rangefinder (hardly decisive if don't use frequently tele-lenses or

high end fast lenses at full aperture) and Konica could easily

correct the Hexar defect with a magnifier as an accessory, just as

Leica recently did... The second advantage being the manual advance

and the associated perfect silence... Unless you specialize in live

entertainement photography the very small noise of the Hexar RF

integrated motor is hardly a liability. But, more important, both

these advantages were already present in an M6 ! ...

 

<p>

 

TTL flash I hear you say ? Again something present in the M6 TTL.

Moreover, if TTL falsh is something valuable, how about the limit at

1/50th of a second to synchronize it ? The Hexar RF has

unfortunately no TTL flash but it synchronizes at 1/125th of a

second and this with any flash unit. The M7 could only operate a

single Metz unit up to 1/1000th of a second but beside being obliged

to buy this precise flash unit, fill-in will be as tricky as with

the Hexar as you lost TTL measure on the way! ... And most of the

time, using a rangefinder camera means the flash is better used as a

fill-in device, don't you think so ??

 

<p>

 

Finally, the M7 is still using the Leica way to load films... Really

a piece of crap ! Not only slow but also dangerous in difficult

action situation as you might well have troubles not loosing the

body plate which fully separates from the camera...

 

<p>

 

So what do you really get for more than twice the price of an Hexar

RF... Practically VERY few ...

 

<p>

 

And that's the great mistake and the point where the M7 is liable to

be criticized...

 

<p>

 

On the contrary to Allen Herbert, I think Leica didn't went as far

as they should have done to produce the first 21st century RF camera.

 

<p>

 

I must prize them for not going to the AF (which is unable to be

precise enough to match a classical rangefinder) but (I hate to say

that) to keep an already obsolescent concept with their shutter

(which could have permitted 1/2000th of a second and much more

important be synchronized at 1/250th of a second) just to keep two

magnificiently useless mechanical speeds is stupid (not to mention

the more economical way a fully electronic shutter could be produced

and assembled and the related and necessary lower price the body

could have been sold). To have kept the metering to a mere AE + AE

lock mode is sheer non-sense... I think you can do almost as fast

with manual settings if you have to recompose and automatic mode is

strictly justified only when maximum speed of operation is needed

(at least for any serious photog. having some familiarity with Ansel

Adams theories and their use in practice)and the only auto-mode to

permit "push button operation" with a real chance to get a

technically good pic is matrix measuring. For symetrical reasons in

manual mode, the best can only be extracted with a very precise spot

measure. Leica has kept the (bad) compormise of an heavily centered

measure both in automatic and manual mode. And last but not least

the pesky loading system has been kept...

 

<p>

 

The result is clear the M7 is much too expensive for what it is

worth and does not offer any significant improvement not only over

the M6 TTL but over the much less overpriced Hexar RF.

 

<p>

 

If someone has already read the excellent test of it by Mr. Putts,

it is also clear that if no "Leica killing" features were

incorporated in the Hexar RF it is because Konica was trying to

reach an agreement with Leica... As these negotiations failed, I

doubt the next evolution of the Hexar RF will be so deliberately

limited not to compete directly with the M bodies... Only had a

better finder with 0.72 magnification and an adaptable magnifier and

TTL capabilities (and why not 1/250th sync. speed) and you're equal

or bettter than the M7 for half its price. Add matrix metering in AE

mode and spot metering in manual mode (and if possible manual

advance or silent mode for the motor) and you've got a "Leica

killer"...

 

<p>

 

I waited a long, long, time for the M7 to appear... I dreamt of real

state of the art range finder camera, I didn't get it with the M7. I

don't think I'll go back now to Leica bodies... Sad to say that as a

long time Leica buff... But I'm a user, not a collector.

 

<p>

 

As a final, I must also say to the one who told us the lack of

proper battery will forbid him to use his cherished Leica M7 fifty

years from now, he is very unrealistic... He must consider instead

being short of film supply much earlier than of proper battery units.

True, unless you can afford an astronomical sum to buy a very high

definition digital back for a medium or large format camera, silver

based emulsion is still the best to take pictures. But face the

facts, with a high end film scanner an the proper printer you can

already get prints in A3 format from a 35 mm film which equals in

quality the classical color prints (and if you use bichrome function

in Photoshop even match very good classical B&W prints by the way).

Tomorrow, you'll do exactly the same with digital cameras (not the

ones designed today for digital only but our good old models with

appropriate backs and full format sensors)... Leica M7 backward

looking way of loading is not only a practical liability but

precludes the use of such a full format digital back... Not so with

the Hexar... THINK about this important shortcoming twice before

buying...

 

<p>

 

Friendly to all, from a disappointed Leica fan from France

 

<p>

 

François P. WEILL

[sparkie]

François said:

 

<p>

 

Metering... Someone mentioned the Weston meter with

selenium... Not battery dependent of course... I had the occasion

to use a Weston and no doubt it was a fine meter. BUT, if you try

nowadays to find a Weston which the selenium element is still in

proper useable condition you might have to travel a long way...

Most are definitely dead as the selenium element is not due to

last forever... So to say battery dependence for metering will be

something you'd better get used to anyway. I don't know any

manufacturer currently producing a selenium meter today.

ANSWER:

 

<p>

 

Still being made in England today by Megatron. You can email

them from your computer or ring them to mail order direct. They

are not as elusive as the holy grail. And are about as far as

reaching for your keyboard or phone.

 

<p>

 

http://www.megatron.co.uk/euromaster2/

 

<p>

 

For background and history:

http://WestonMaster.com/indexa.htm

 

<p>

 

For repairs Megatron do it also, or check this:

http://people.smu.edu/rmonagha/mf/weston.html

 

<p>

 

Best,

[michael_b.1]

Allen,

 

<p>

 

this is why it's better you don't have a camera store (I know that

you don't want to own one). I'm very amused about your reactions.

Thank you.

[Allen Herbert]

just a thought M ,nice to put a smile on a face,you are right i

dont.Could never handle all those buttons. Regards Allen

[Allen Herbert]

For him, the M camera should remain what it was because it represents

the lack of any kind of automatism and the real masterization of

photography by the man (or the woman) behind the camera.

 

<p>

 

I could have not put it better... thanks