Allen Herbert Posted March 10, 2002 Share Posted March 10, 2002 M7 seems to defeat the whole idea of leica Ms, will the m8 or m9 be just like a contax g2.Leica need to read their own brochure.It seems to me they are loosing their way.They have done all this before with the R8(NEED I SAY MORE).More gadgets to go wrong,more and more dependancy on the tool doing it for you.I will never forget my batteries going on my nikon 801 at a friends wedding.My understandingof leica Ms is that you take the photo not the camera,that is the whole idea of the camera.Correct me if i am wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geddert Posted March 10, 2002 Share Posted March 10, 2002 this is true of all cameras: "you take the photo, not the camera" <p> I don't care for automation, and will stick with M6 TTL's (i like the size of the shutter speed selector)... but if somebody wants that automation they can go right ahead and get it for all i care. There are enough M6 TTL's out there to last me a few lifetimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernd_kunze Posted March 10, 2002 Share Posted March 10, 2002 I have asked myself the same question. As long as I am able to set the corrent time/aperture I wonder what I use the M7 for. However I am apparently not the only Leica customer so there might be others who will likely use the new features. As long as Leica does not kill their own heritage I am fine. And with 5 Leica M6 bodies I will be able to inherit some to my kids.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_su4 Posted March 10, 2002 Share Posted March 10, 2002 There are lots of situations when having the camera pick the shutter speed automatically can be handy and not compromise the quality of the exposure. <p> Control comes from knowing when the camera will do the right thing and when it will not. Whether you set the shutter speed dial by hand or the camera does is not all that important IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn_travis Posted March 10, 2002 Share Posted March 10, 2002 Personally, outside of providing a tight (1 degree) spot, it's hard for me to see how the M6 could be improved. And it seems as if most of the improvements for the M6 have made there way into the M7. As far as batteries go, I don't know what to say about someone who doesn't carry spare batteries for an important occasion. After all, I carry spare batteries for my M6. You can carry enough spare batteries for the M7, in a minimum of space to last a lifetime. I think I caculated by six spare M7 type batteries take up about as much room as 1 AA. I just hope the M7 doesn't become another M5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot Posted March 10, 2002 Share Posted March 10, 2002 Allen and others. Even if you don't use the AE feature (and who among us would not use it if it were there?), the M7 has other useful features. For one thing, it has a more accurate shutter (whether in AE or not) with nearly continuous settings. That is to say, the shutter accuracy is greater and the exposure accuracy is greater. In addition, the VF window is multicoated to reduce RF patch flaring. Not to mention high speed sync (1/250-1/1000) with the Metz flash unit. These sound like useful features to me. However, others may disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucien1 Posted March 10, 2002 Share Posted March 10, 2002 The M7 is a real Leica. <p> It work exactly like a M6TTL, but faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfie wang Posted March 10, 2002 Share Posted March 10, 2002 Sorry dude, but a Leica M7 rocks the house and doesn't defeat the purpose of Leica M's. Only a crappy photographer will defeat the purpose of Leica M. And there is a saying: take a photo by all means necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_.1 Posted March 10, 2002 Share Posted March 10, 2002 It seems if you're under pretty consistent lighting throughout a scene there's not much need to fiddle with settings. I preset the aperture for lighting and DOF needs, then it's just shutter and focus to worry about. I like my M6TTL, got it in Jan. and could've waited for the M7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kristian dowling Posted March 10, 2002 Share Posted March 10, 2002 I would better depend on a M7 made by Nikon rather than Leica. Until Leica has proven the M7's reliability in the marketplace, I will not be convinced. Prove me wrong Leica....I dare you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marco_hidalgo Posted March 10, 2002 Share Posted March 10, 2002 The main problem I forsee for the autoexposure of the M7 is that it makes the exposure from a spot metering, not a center weighted or a matrix metering. therefore lots of wrong exposures may occur. (when AE lock is not used of course). It is the opposite with the spot metering of the M6 that gives the photographer the exact exposure after one has decided wich part of the photo has the highlights, where are the shadows and where exactly to aim the spot metering to get things right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot Posted March 10, 2002 Share Posted March 10, 2002 Marco. I don't understand your comments. The metering syste in the Leica M7 is exactly the same as that in the M6. There is AE exposure lock so you can meter on something appropriate and then recompose. You would have to do exactly the same thing with an M5, M6, or M6TTL. Only the M7 will give you a more accurate exposure, since the shutter speed set is essentially stepless. The M7 was designed to give MORE ACCURATE shutter speeds as well as exposures. Of course, like any manual exposure system, it must be used with some care and thought. <p> The metering pattern of the M6/TTL and M7 are identical. Neither is a spot meter, but a cenral circle corresponding to 13-23% of the film image area depending on the distance to which the lens is set. This may be considered a "large" spot, but is the pattern preferred by Leica, precisely because of the problem you mention with metering a timy area not representative of the entire scene. <p> Kristian. I don't think Leica needs to prove anything to anyone. After all, they did develop the first commercially successful 35 mm camera and gave produced an excellent series of M cameras and an outstanding series of lenses. Anyone who is concerned about the first batch of cameras having particular problems can buy the camera with USA passport warranty. Any problems will be fixed (or the camera replaced) without regard to the cause. <p> Personally, I would be more concerned buying a state-of-the-art autofocus auto everything camera because there are far more things to go wrong. Anyway, anyone who doesn't like the electronics incorporated into the M7 doesn't have to buy one. But my guess is that most of you M users will eventually end up owning an M7 sooner or later. The same goes for the M8 and M9 :-). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msitaraman Posted March 10, 2002 Share Posted March 10, 2002 Marco is spot on about AE exposure :-) <p> It is quite conceivable that in blotchy contrasty lighting or high contrast subjects that the AE exposure is all over the place, thanks to the fat spot metering pattern. <p> Finger tip single exposure AE lock is great, but only for a single frame. It is ergonomically awkward to make sure that a sequence of frames is consistently exposed, in AE mode, in the sorts of situations I have envisaged as being challenging. <p> To do that, the only solution would be to switch to manual. <p> Multi-exposure fingertip AE lock, in addition to the single exposure lock, (perhaps incorporated into the sliding on/off switch around the shutter release) would have greatly increased the value of AE in this camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliot Posted March 10, 2002 Share Posted March 10, 2002 Mani and Marco. Maybe so. I didn't think of that aspect of the AE lock - that you have to repeat this operation for each frame. But if use an M motor at 3 FPS (for which I myself have no need), is there enough time for the camera to make new AE measurements for each frame or will it just use the original AE locked exposure. I would think the latter is more likely, but I don't know. This issue only comes up because of the AE feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted March 10, 2002 Share Posted March 10, 2002 <i>More gadgets to go wrong,more and </i><p> My primary camera is a Mamiya 7. I've used it through the Central American jungle and in North African desert. I've worked in pouring rain in Europe and on the street just about everywhere. I have yet to have a problem, ever, and the Mamiya 7 is more dependent on "gadgets" than the Leica M7.<p> I would also point out that the press photographers has delivered consistently from Afghanistan with almost all digital cameras in unbearable conditions and have yet to complain about their equipment. What are you doing that is so much more likely to cause "gadget" failure?<P> <i>more dependancy on the tool doing it for you</i><p> Photographers, <i>photographers</i>, always do it for themselves regardless of the equipment. Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay_. Posted March 10, 2002 Share Posted March 10, 2002 The M7 is one case where I won't be able to offer my opinion for a while. Until the bugs in the M7 (and there will be) are documented along with their fixes, and the prices fall several hundred dollars (and they will) I will continue to use my M6 classics and my Hexar RF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayton_p._strickland Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 I'm sorry Allen, but every time I read something on this forum about cameras that are dependent on batteries I have to go look at the calendar and see what decade we are living in. Those tiny little dinky batteries take up no room and cost next to nothing. The lithiums last forever so why not stock up and be prepared for crying out load. If I can carry eight extra AA lithiums in an extra holder for my Canon EOS-3 just in case, I think I can handle having an extra battery for my M-6. Geeezzz!!! And on another note -- the best photographer I ever met once said "It ain't the arrows, it's the Indian."-------------------------------------------------------------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nesrani Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 This whole batteries thing is such unadulterated rubbish. You're telling us you're worried about batteries, typing on a computer connected to a global network of other computers, you watch TV, drive a car, use a cellphone, listen to the radio and so on and so on. Go and buy some batteries. Put them in your pocket. <p> If your nikon failed during a wedding it was your fault, not the camera's - you should have had a load of spare batteries. <p> Yes, yes, the Leica philosophy! No batteries = good pictures, the best cameras were made fifty years ago, etc etc. What a load of nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl_yik1 Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 Isnt everyone missing the point here. The M7 is meant to compliment the M6 ttl which is going to still be produced alongside the M7. They are 2 different cameras and will always be preferred by some people and hated by others. Lets see if they are more reliable than the first R8 cameras! ;] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_kastner Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 Sometimes I wish I worked for Leica. Like right now. Never a dull day!Just imagine having worked on the M7 project for the last few years and now the thing is coming out.<br><b><i><font face="Arial,Helvetica">Read all about it!</font></i></b><br>Hundreds of <b><i><font face="Arial,Helvetica"><font color="#00CC00"><font size=+1>"Wow!"</font></font><font color="#000000">s</font></font></i></b>,hundreds of <b><i><font face="Arial,Helvetica"><font color="#FF0000"><font size=+1>"Eee!"</font></font><font color="#000000">s</font></font></i></b>.<br>All at the same time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted March 11, 2002 Author Share Posted March 11, 2002 Sorry cannot resist, have to say this.When you change clothes dont forget your batteries.Make sure you have got the right ones.Get your wife to remind when you go out to say dont forget your batteries.Make sure you dont drop them out of your pocket.I just love them anyone got a spare battery for a *****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtodrick Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 Gee, we Leica photographers must be sorry lot! Nearly every other 35mm camera on the planet needs batteries to operate these days and yet people make great photos with them. Yet it appears from some of the above posts that Leica shooters are just too darned stupid to put an extra set of batteries in their camera case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted March 11, 2002 Author Share Posted March 11, 2002 How is your new FlashBangWallopm896.I hear you do not have to bother to turn it on,or even bother to press that bothersome shutter release.Just say take,hold on tight and it whirls around taking photos.It even took some nice photos 40miles away and some of the craters of the moon.l hear is has improved your eye for a good photo and improved your tech skills.And if you do not like what it took just change them in photoshop super to what you thik they should have been like.I am sure it has brought out the real photographer in you.That pink leatherette battery holder for it is really wow,looks as good as the camera.And the company has kept to tradition by othering it in the original colors.Luky you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_brown4 Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 On the battery issue... <p> Howevver, the average technoblitz camera winds up in the trash in 10-15 years. A Leica can reasonably be expected to last over 50 years. Will the required batteries still be available in 50 years? I dunno. I have my dad's old Instamatic fromm the 70's that took Mercury cells. Can't get batteries for it any more. With an M6TTL, in 50 years you still have a good manual camera (sans meter) if the batteries go away. With an M7, well, may be you retrofit an M6 shutter to it ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dzeanah Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 Watch me get branded as uptight for this.<p> I've got a Konica Hexar that works well for me, and I just traded for an M6. My wife and I will be spending something like a year overseas (Guatemala, Honduras -- don't know for sure as she'll be an MD but not board certified yet. We're working on the details) in places where even Peace Corps workers have problems with parasites because you can't pack in enough firewood to be able to boil all the water you drink (no roads or infrastructure).<p> I find the idea of a camera that will work fine without film to be very comforting. I don't know that I could do the same with 2 available shutter speeds as I could with the full range of speeds available -- I could very likely make it work, but not nearly as well.<p> That's not to say that I make camera decisions based on whether the cameras are fully manual or not (though in MF I <i>am</i> drawn toward Hasselblad 500's and Rollei TLR's), but I think it's reasonable for some of us to say it's one of the features we look at.<p> Of course, if you never leave the city then these concerns might not affect you at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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