Bride wants money back. What to do?

[mariah_smith]

Gonna play "bride's advocate" here :)

 

"The bride then proceeded to tell me that she didn't like the way I shot things. So I was even more confused...was it the qulaity or the style?"

 

Could be that when she was saying she wasn't happy with the "quality" she was refering to the aesthetic quality and not the resolution...ie, she thought the pics looked "snapshotish" and not professional in that manner. Non photographer's have a hard time pinpointing exactly what they don't like about a picture and using the correct terminology.

 

Also, the first thing I did when I got the photos I hated was try to make an album out of them to try to make myself feel better. It's possible that's why she made an album right away, too.

 

I don't understand the advice to offer her a portrait or baby session. After this situation, does anyone really think either party would be comfortable enough to do a successfull shoot together in the future? Plus, the last thing I wanted to do was see my wedding photographer again...much less, try to be relaxed in front of her camera.

 

I know you've gotten a lot of advice on this one but I'm pretty much the only one that believes this girl may have a legitimate complaint. Of course, I haven't seen your work and I haven't met her but I thought you might benefit from someone who's been in her shoes showing you that what you could see as examples of scamming, I see as something I've done (and I was in no way scamming...really, I mean it :)

 

I think the best thing to do is get in a room with her and try to read her. Very few people are good at coning and I think few people would go through this much trouble to get back money they spent 6+ months ago, unless they're just really miserable. I know I couldn't tell my photog. face to face how much I hated the pictures. She's a nice person and I didn't want to hurt her feelings. I could barely tell her agent (and I had to do it through email because I couldn't talk about it and not cry).

 

See, all those little things that supposedly "prove" she's out to get free stuff, might be able to be explained away.

 

Follow your gut... if she seems genuinly upset when you meet her, she probably is. Remember that what she's telling you could be very hard for her. Telling an artist that you don't like their work is extremely difficult for anyone, especially someone extremely emotional.

 

Alright, long enough post. I honestly have no idea if she has a leg to stand on but I thought you might want to hear a bit from the other perspective.

 

Let us know what happens. Whatever way it goes, the meeting will be tough on both of you and I hope it goes as well as it can! :)

[kevin cook - stratford upo]

I'd like to have seen some of the images to properly express an opinion

[will king]

Kind of sounds like a person whoe goes to a restuarant and takes a bite of food and complains that the food tastes horrible and demands that she is not charged for the meal yet she continues to eat the whole plate. They are people who want a free lunch. Stand your ground. Keep us updated. I would love to hear the ending to this story.

[justscattin]

Okay, bells and whistles...sounds to me first of all that they (over the last 4 months) have been getting all the resulting bills and realizing how much more that was spent and they are looking for ways to cover their bills...

YOU! You already provided them with a cd that was undoubtedly copied and copied and probably distributed those copies among friends and family. SECOND...the bride had an album made? By someone besides you? Do you allow this and do you guarantee SOMEONE ELSE'S WORK? Uuuummmm....NO!!!!!!!!!!!

Because she took the cd and had someone else create an album of your images that would automatically flag it for me....ABSOLUTELY NO REFUND. She has gotten everything she wanted from you to this point and now just wants her money back because she can get it if you allow that to happen.

Sit down with the coordinator separately from the bride and groom and discuss this. The coordinator doesn't really know what goes into your work, but you do. Then, sit down with the bride and groom and get a straight story (have the coordinator there so if the story starts to change, you know it!)...ask why YOU should be responsible for an album NOT created by YOU?

Start there and go...but as far as I and my professional photography studio go and our policies...They have actually used your images more than enough to justify the money paid to you to this point...offer to create an album for them....but charge them for it! And make it a kick ass album! SHOW them why YOU are the professional! And ask to see the crappy album that someone else made representing your work. And say something along the lines of "You are right. I would not have paid this guy to do this to my images either. He/she should refund your money! He totally misrepresenting MY work."

Michelle

[david_norell]

Again, thanks for all of the advice and comments. I will keep you posted. I have made a call to her this morning to schedule the appointment for this afternnon as I told her I would. No answer on her part, so I left the message. Yet, it's still early on the west coast. If I do meet with her, I will post the results.

 

Again, thanks all.

[conraderb]

As is frequent, I would like to +1 on Al's statement. This client might be worth trying to win back again, but if they are totally unreasonable, then any friends who sympathize with them simply aren't the kind of people who you want to work with in the future :-(

[michelle_gunton]

I would not give her money back if she is keeping the pictures.

[William Michael]

There have been many more thoughts on this since I made a short comment.

 

On re reading the thread would like to add a few points that expand to broader issues which might give some pause for thought:

 

1. The original bottom line question:

 

> My [dilemma] is that I don`t want to [jeopardize] my relationship with this wedding coordinator.

 

Any suggestions . . . <

 

I reiterate if the WC is professional, the relationship is not in jeopardy. If the WC does weigh in to the dispute then you should question the value of an ongoing professional relationship with the WC.

 

And the other points:

 

1. The only viable complaint you have stated the Bride has made is > I did not follow her list of shots she wanted < , the other `complaints` you note in your question are padding.

 

Now either you did supply the products as requested (i.e. the shots on her request list or you did not), it is really as simple as that.

 

That might be an hard pill to swallow, but that, IMO, is the essence of it. If there was a list of shots requested they have been done or not done, that was your job, no ifs, buts or maybes.

 

2. You have given the client an High Res DVD, without the client signing off on the job. This cannot be remedied, but I guess your protocol immediately changed and is now in step with most commercial practice and your clients are required to sign off on each job upon receipt of the goods.

 

3. The reality is, as previously mentioned, there is at least one copy of the CD made, and possibly several print which have been already distributed. These prints could have been made at your pro lab, but IMO that is very unlikely. The prints indeed might be very poor quality, hence the complaint about YOUR quality: perhaps?

 

4. Given that reality (4. above), if you really want to regain ground, you could posture an explanation about print quality etc, but IMO and with my limited understanding of the nuances of the situation you have presented, doing so would most likely be a waste of time.

 

5. I understand the emotion displayed by posts explaining the `bride`s point of view` especially the photographer who was also a bride. However from your point of view the rules are professional and business only: now that does not mean inconsiderate, but it does mean not personal, and arguments like `I didn`t like your photos` are emotion based, not factual. Which brings us back to the only legitimate complaint thus far: either you got all those on her list or you did not.

 

6. Stating the obvious; you really need to handle this now how you decide and you only can decide that. But, on re-reading the posts, it seems that maybe you in fact did not complete exactly what you were contracted to do and, added to that you have a really difficult (or perfectionist) client.

 

NOW IF THE FORMER IS THE CASE you have to find a resolution around that, the first process of which is admission (to yourself) that you did not complete the assigned task: which is very difficult to do.

 

7. Now before I get several responses, I know I am way out of step with many Wedding Photographers in the 2007 mainstream here but:

 

nota bene: When a professional photographer provides or sells any: negative; positive; or digital file to a client, he immediately losses ALL quality control of the final printed image and credentials; and is also on the defending side of disputes regarding: copyright; publication; or display rights.

 

In business, it does not serve us all to provide the same catalogue of products, and I do hope that you come to an amicable arrangement, but when the dust settles you may pause to think about several thoughts made here and perhaps you might look more closely at your business protocols, because in my opinion, such instances as you have experienced will become more commonplace, and such are made easier by some of the protocols you had (or did not have) in place at the time.

 

All the very best with the resolution of this difficulty.

 

WW

[10tenphoto]

There is alot of great advice in some of the answers here. As manager of a wedding photography studio that shoots 1000 weddings a year, I've seen this scenario on quite a few occasions. If it's the first time you are dealing with it in 10 years, you've been very fortunate.

I sincerely urge you not to give this bride her money back. You are taking the right steps toward working things out. You need to find what the real issue is.

Is she just trying to get her pictures for free? Maybe, but I'm leaning toward no. Is she unhappy with every picture? I doubt it. Are there some pictures she doesn't like or some pictures that weren't taken. Probably. This is common with almost every wedding.

You need to really probe her and let her tell you what the real issue at hand is. Only then can you know what kind of compensation, if any, is necessary.

Aside from the fact that she is screaming and you have a relationship with the coordinator, do you feel you should have to give her anything back due to the quality? Did you guarantee any type of style or specific shots in writing? If not, than you have nothing to worry about. A difference of opinion is in no way a reason for refund. We work too hard to just give our business away.

 

Remember....full refund is out of the question. Stand firm.

[mariah_smith]

Honestly...what is up with all of you and your "No refunds ever" crap (sorry, is that a considered a swear...couldn't think of a better word :)???

 

I know this thread has been beaten to death but seriously, what if the caterer gave the bride food that wasn't nearly as good as what she sampled & didn't provide all that she asked for and they agreed on. You're really going to tell me that the bride should tell the caterer to take all the food away (or give it back, if it's after the fact) in order to get some compensatation. Really...come on! Just because most of us consider outselves artists doesn't mean we're above good customer service rules!

 

Especially since the pictures are the only part of the wedding that last...favors, food, hair, flowers - they all go away and don't matter that much in the long run. The pictures - they're here to stay and if a bride gets screwed, she should be compensated and not have to give up the only images she has.

 

There - I'm stepping off my soap box now. I just couldn't believe how many no refund responses there were!

[William Michael]

> I know this thread has been beaten to death <

 

Maybe this is an indication of how important the underlaying issue is to many Professional Wedding Photographers.

 

IMO, as previously mentioned, such will be an occurrence that will escalate; given present business trends in the Wedding Photography Industry.

 

 

> Honestly...what is up with all of you and your "No refunds ever" . . . <

 

I did a quick search of the thread; it seems that this quote appears ONLY your last post. It is in fact the first and only time this quote is used. (Although on a second reading I could be proved wrong.)

 

I think the numerous indications not to give a refund IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE are based upon the interpretation of the view presented in the question and subsequent additions by that member.

 

Having read your contributions to the threads, carefully, I clearly understand your personal passion and your personal point of view: however from the point of view of answering the question posted, if such passion and personal feelings are represented on behalf of the business involved, when in consultation with a passionate and emotive client, that is a recipe which will inevitably lead to a poorer situation.

 

And I come back to a key issue IMO, the point that Mr Vesci (and others) made should be well taken: to come across this situation only once in ten years / 400 Weddings is very fortunate.

 

 

> There - I'm stepping off my soap box now. <

 

Well me too, for now.

 

Regards,

 

WW

[ian_cooke1]

Mariah,

<p>

First, I'm sorry that your wedding photos were less than stellar.

<p>

But the "no refunds" thing is simple (in my opinion). As photographers, we provide a service, our time, our skill, and a product. We need to get paid. We need to eat, pay rent, pay for insurance, equipment, take care of our families, etc... I am a full time photographer. Weddings are only a small part of my business now, but I hope to grow it.<p>

For any of my other work, if I gave a refund to one person, that sets a pretty strong precedent for other clients.... "hey, I don't think you did that good of a job... you missed this/that... I want $xxx amount of money back".... Where would it end?

<p>

I'm speaking in general photography business terms, but I imagine this might be even more applicable in the wedding photography business. There are a limited number of weekends in the year so only a limited number of jobs that a full time wedding shooter can do (unless they hire associates, etc.). For some people, one good wedding could be 5% of their total gross income. That's huge if you consider they have a mortgage, a family, and all the other expenses I mentioned above. To give that back could really hurt. Not to mention setting a precedent... for that photographer AND for the rest of industry. <p>

Now if the photographer honestly screwed up, that's a different story. Refunds should not be given just to appease an unreasonable client. I'm always happy to volunteer to offer someone some extra prints or to re-shoot a portrait session if they are unsatisfied. I know you can't re-shoot a wedding, but offering some other compensation (when warranted) instead of refund makes much more sense.

<p>

[james d.]

Was this a $1,000 wedding or a $10,000 wedding?

 

Some people see photographs from high end weddings and for some reason kid

themselves into thinking theirs should be the same even though they ordered the budget

package that didn't include the two lighting people and the third photographer.

 

You already have plenty of good advice here, but my gut feeling is she's just trying to

shake you down.

 

What you have to do is figure out how this may affect future business. I wouldn't worry

about the wedding coordinator as you wouldn't have lasted this long if they didn't have

faith in you already.

 

Good luck,

 

Jim

[fotografz]

Let's cut to the chase.

 

No one here except the original poster has seen the photography in question. It could be

great, it could be not so great. Don't have a clue.

 

The client doesn't like the photos. Speculating on the motivation either way is just that ...

pure speculation.

 

Not refunding money or refunding it, won't change the above. The photographer will not

get a recommendation from this client ... so take that out of the equation.

 

Laundry lists provided by the client and agreed to either in writing or verbally have to

honored, or are a basis of a legitimate complaint. The moral of which is don't guarantee a

laundry list because there is almost always mitigating circumstances that interfere with it.

Most lists from clients are naively ambitious, and many photographers to eager to

please ... a bad combination.

[DickArnold]

I did Weddings in my own business from 1996 to 2002. I usually could smell a bad customer and just tell them I was booked on the date. The one time I didn't I got burned. I did a satisfactory wedding out of doors near a lighthouse. I got great prints of the Bride and Groom but, because I was using Medium format manual focus, I somehow missed the focus on pictures in front of the lighthouse. The bride called me in tears. She was not very photogenic and I got great pictures of her. She was upset that I got her husband in profile because she didn't like his profile and about the lighthouse. I felt for her and was pissed at my own incompetence on the lighthouse pictures; however, they got a bargain wedding, and tried to beat me down on price at every turn. In those days I owned the negatives and they never got them. I wrote off their enlargement order and provided them with extra large prints. Write it off. The aggravation is not worth the hassle. As was said earlier, I would find a way in this digital era not to give away my intellectual property without being compensated for it. Perhaps sending low res prints or as some do digitally imposing my name across the digital image. I still have her negs. I just wanted to move on so she got about 500 bucks of my revenue(she never got her initial fee back) and she had a point. I had lots of very satisfied brides and mothers. That was my only bad one. I got hosed on one of my first weddings as I estimated it on having about 30 guests and 200 showed up. The mother-in-law and mother got into a huge fight over pictures that the mother ordered that the mother-in-law refused to pay for(the mother is quite well-off). I finally had to bill both of them, and then the former husband of the mother, and an uncle. I got most of my money out of the wedding but it took months. I feel for you and that kind of agony takes all the fun out of the business. What I learned was to take the time to get a real meeting of the minds before the wedding, reduce it to writing, retain the negatives. Most of all, for almost all of my successful weddings I got the bride and parents to spend an hour or so with me in my studio before the wedding to extablish a friendly rapport that made for relaxed picture taking during the wedding. I sometimes shot a few pictures in the studio to get things started. I also tried to obtain agreement to have a people gatherer for the formals and to roughly determine the order of formal pictures as I know I generally had twenty to thirty minutes to get the formals between the wedding and the reception if they were in the same place. I tried to do formals before, but, there was always someone who didn't show up. It was also helpful to go the rehearsal so you could claim some time in the schedule and re-enforce relationships. That bride never liked me. If customers like you they will generally work with you. Sometimes that is just not possible. I have made other screw-ups like having the wrong manual exposure set up inside a lovely church. I just quietly told the bride I screwed up and could we go outside and do it again. She gave me a hug and I shot another roll of 620 outside. The two of us then snuck off to a cliff over looking the ocean and got some great pictures of her and her ten foot train. I finally decided to give it all up because there is a lot of pressure in shooting weddings. As someone said you can't do it over. It has to right the first time.

[DickArnold]

Just to add. I don't see the problem with fading light. I used old Vivitar 283s on my Bronicas and shot fill on every wedding formal I did for insurance and to kill shadows as most of my weddings were out of doors. All I would have had to do was to set the fill at one to one or brighter which I did on several weddings. It is much easier now. It sounds like, as in my wedding, there were two sides to the issue. I was mortified that I had an unhappy customer. It was my fault and if I had had to give all her money back I would have. I immediately admitted my mistake with the lighthouse to her and we did not wind up friends but we communicated and after she stopped cryiing we worked through the issues and compromised. She was not satisfied with the work but she thought I did my best to do the right thing. These things happen. I have done weddings where everyone was so hungover that it was almost impossible to get anyone to smile; where the bride and groom were already fighting. I never got an enlargement order on one wedding where I thought I did an outstanding job. I later learned the wedding ended in violence shortly after. It takes all kinds of people to have weddings. Some are more difficult than others. The emotion and hysteria can run very high at others. And, I have done weddings for a lot of truly wonderful people. I suggest moving on.

[kimberly_smith___anchorage]

I would definately ask to see the album. I just ordered a "storybook style" album on a whim a few weeks ago, to see what the quality was like. I was shocked at how horrible my beautiful images looked! Most customers do not realize the importance of professional printing, and then blame any problems on the photographer.<BR><BR>

Good luck and I would like to see the images in question.<BR><BR>

Kimberly

[DickArnold]

I have never worked with a wedding coordinator although I have sometimes acted as one as a lot of people traveled to our location. But I guess that's customary these days. But if there is an intermediary it is hard to establish that precious relationship between photographer and client that is so important for comfort and communication. You become hired help. Another thought, my processors sometimes did terrible work that had to be corrected before I could show it to the client. Giving control over images to the customer for third party processing, as I guess now is customary, so they can get outside processing can be devastating.

[dnmullaney]

Like everyone else, I have not seen the images, so I'm unable to comment on style or quality.

 

On the issue of red flags, I'd say there are many. She has hi-res JPEGs on a DVD...refuses an album [presumably because she's ordered one from an internet site...]...she only wants her money back.

 

When dealing with a professional, I've found that the first question most people have when faced with quality issues is "can you make it better". I would assume the average Jane and Joe think we can perform PS magic and would ask for that first. Asking for a full refund sounds singleminded, especially coupled with her acquisition of high quality original images.

 

The customer is not always right. My ex-father-in-law attempted to make a quality, quantity, style issue out of my wedding photos to get money back or get more product. His motives were not pure and he poisoned the relationship between the photographer and us.

[nolefan32]

"I know you've gotten a lot of advice on this one but I'm pretty much the only one that believes this girl may have a legitimate complaint. "

 

Mariah - legitimate complaint or not, I don't know of any situation where I got to have my cake and eat it, too, that is, get a product I didn't have to pay for. If I wasn't happy with a product, I had to return it for my refund. Thus, she can have her prints or she can have her refund, but if she keeps the prints, she accept the product and then she should expect to pay for it.

 

BTW, I doubt she hired a photographer for as important an event as a wedding without first looking at examples of his work. Thus when she hired him, she had a pretty good idea up front of what she was going to get, and somehow after approx. 400 weddings under his belt, I don't suspect there's a lot of variation in David's product now. She reviewed David's work, she hired him, she got the product she paid for, she now has buyer's remorse, she can return the photos for a refund. That's how it should work.

[DickArnold]

One other point. David Norell, I really empathize with you. I used to do 400 or so pictures per wedding with film. I delivered 35mm 4x6s and 645mm 3x5s in a book. Maybe I put fifty per cent or less of the pictures in the book. My customers never saw substandard, poorly exposed, or awkward pictures. I would never, unless there was a prior agreement, deliver that many pictures to a customer. Too much choice. Too confusing. For instance on an eight person formal I would shoot six or seven fast pictures. I usually did three sets of Bride and Groom in different locations. They only saw the very best. I did promotional work and other events. My customers never saw my substandard work except the lighthouse. It seems to me if you deliver five hundred pictures you are overwhelming them with too many choices and maybe giving them some ammunition for their quality complaints. Again, I wasn't there but I know how this feels first hand so I am with you. If they got five hundred pictures I will take it as an article of faith that they got some damn good pictures. With five hundred, in their computer, they could go over the good ones and not even know it. I hope you take some with you.

[anson_gessel]

you asked a basic question of what to do to maintain a good relationship with the

coordinator. That is the key issue here. Go to the source and ask the coordinator what they

think you should do? Also help them understand your POV and maintain that allegiance and

trust with each other. The bride is a 'sunk cost' as an economist would say, some people

aren't ever happy. try and make them happy but your not Nordstrom's, keep the money and

they'll get over it. Focus on the coordinator, take him/her to lunch and chat about the

situation.

[chetn]

I wonder if you had provided low res, watermarked JPEG's or a DVD slideshow (TV playable only ie. Proshow) this thread wouldn't be necessary.

You have given her everything she could desire and are giving her the choice to pay if she wants to. Not every one is that honest, and with deals this good even the honest may be tempted.

Perhaps a neutral third party could make a comparison of expectation and results and help deliberate.

[russ_butner___portland__or]

Kimberly

 

Who made your storybood album? I'd like to have a couple made too. Was it that the color was way off? That's been a common problem...

 

Thanks

Russ

[ellery_chua___singapore]

David,

 

You need to talk to the wedding coordinator about this.

 

Situtation seems strange. I assume the couple saw samples of your work and knew what to exect.

 

You handed the high res dvd over, they sent in a 100 4x6 print order - no mentions about the work not being acceptable. That is a fact since they did place the print order.

 

Has that been delivered ? Are they complaining about those prints too ?

 

On the list - how much of it did you miss ? Some is explainable all is not.

 

On the album some one else made - ask to see it. This could be the crux of the matter.

 

Refunds - tough call since the product was a dvd getting it back does not mean that the couple did not keep copies. I would suggest no refunds or at best if there are grounds like you missed all the shoots on the list, did not do what they requested for at all - then maybe you need to consider a refund from 50% to 100%. Problem is it could be none of your fault but the PR aspect of it is also important. Work with the coordinator on this matter seek her advice.

 

This is also points out that in the digitial age there are too many pit falls that can cause us pain. With print proofs - you showed them they sign on collection which logged that fact that there was no radical disatisfaction. With a DVD and run thru before we are very vulnerable.