Bride wants money back. What to do?

[mariah_smith]

Coming from a wedding photographer AND a bride who got her money back from her photographer (and kept the full res dvd of ALL images...including the raw throw outs)...keeping the prints or dvd and wanting money back is not unreasonable. In my case, these were the only images I had of my wedding. I couldn't give them up but I was also so dissappointed in the job my photographer did that looking at my wedding pics made me physically ill for at least a month..until I got the DVD and ps'd the heck of them.

 

My complaints were similar to your bride's. Although the quality of the pics were great, my photog didn't do any of the requested shots and didn't do any portraits of me and my husband (and / or daughter). All we had were candid and not very good ones. It's huge to not get the requested poses. I can't fly my relatives in from Florida again and I'm really not into dressing up me and my husband and trying to recreate the scene for the photographer who didn't do want we hired her to do.

 

You can't ask her to give the pics back because that's all she has. Try to put yourself in her shoes. She seems to have legitimate complaints and while there are some scammers out there, I think the safest bet is to give her the benefit of the doubt and try to make her happy.

 

I did have more complaints than she does and I'm not sure if her complaints warrant a full refund. But, maybe you could offer what my photog. did. I originally paid $2400. They refunded me $1400 and I got a DVD of all the images. I did NOT get any prints or online gallery hosting. It made me feel better only because the photog. didn't do a complete job...I shouldn't pay the complete price.

 

Anyway, I have a weak spot for bride's that don't like their pics so I had to contribute a bit on her side. It's truly devistating to not get the wedding images you had in mind.

 

As photographers, we're at weddings every week...as a bride, you only get one (hopefully :)

 

Good luck at your meeting!

[justscattin]

As a professional photographer, I have bills to pay. My contracts are followed to the T. I've seen a lot of very good photographers who have been given the shaft by a bride who burned a copy of the proof cd or scanned the images on her home computer so she didn't have to pay for any images and then wanted money back.

My packages include a cd with the images. If a bride ever wants a refund, I get the cd back. I also will notify any surrounding labs that the individual does not have an authorization release to print any wedding images taken by my lab.

I make sure a bride knows my style, sees examples of my work, and understands that different venues mean different types of images and I encourage many different things.

But I will now allow a bride who is looking for free wedding photography to get my services for free. It's not just the many hours spent on the wedding day, but also the couple of weeks afterwards going thru images one by one that is included in the price. I spend the time doing the work, I get paid for it.

Michelle

[mariah_smith]

Oooh..I thought of a possible solution for you. When you meet her, ask her to rate your performance out of a possible 100%. If she says you did about 80% of what you discussed prior to the wedding, give her a 20% refund and access to 80% of the pics.

 

Okay, you don't have to get all mathmatical (can't spell that one, sorry :) but a general idea. You did show up and take pics..that's at least 50% of a photog's. job, right? You should be entitled to keep 50% of the pay.

 

Might be a compromise you can both live with...just a thought.

[annealmasy]

Mariah makes a very good point. That's why it's important for the couple to sign off on their

images before you hand over a DVD. This way, any complaints can be addressed

immediately - not months or years later - and hopefully both the photographer AND the

clients can reach a satisfactory agreement.

 

It's easy to gripe that the bride should have complained sooner, directly to the photographer.

But it's DEVASTATING to hate your wedding photos, because you know nothing can be done.

Most brides aren't interested in crying on the phone; that's why it takes them so long to

contact their photographer when they're upset.

[mtrejo6]

Wow, you've got quite a situation on your hands. Does your contract say that the bride/groom are responsible for appointing someone for gathering people for specific shots? Also, there should be a clause in you contract that states that you would do your best to fulfill the bride's requests...however, since this is an uncontrolled event, fulfilling all requests may not be possible and any lack of imagery is not your fault. Look over your cotract and find any and all clauses that rebut her complaints. She should have read the contract before signing.

 

I agree with everyone that she probably already burned a zillion copies and sent the across the USA to friends and family. Do a comparison with this wedding and your past 5-10 weddings with the bride and show her that the quality is the same...the quality she agreed to when she signed the contract. Also, tell her to give you specifics in writing about what she thinks is bad on every image, not just a general complaint. You're the pro, not her, so you can rebut each of her complaints from a pro/technical point of view.

 

Stand firm and don't let her games get to you. NO REFUND. As far as the wedding planner is concerned, he wouldn't recommend you if he though you were a bad photog. I don't think this will ruin your relationship. Just avoid pointing the finger at him and he should be on your side. Good luck.

[gary_brown2]

I feel Nadine O'hara's answer is helpful,documentation is key. Talk over your decision with the wedding coordinator. If you think giving her money back will buy her thoughts or keep her from gossiping dream on it doesn't work that way. As you know both of you have already lost. Agree on what is right to do and fair to yourselves. You have to make the decision, not the bride. Keep your self-respect.

[johnnysks]

hmmmm, if this is the case, for future reference it maybe worthwhile to give poof cd with watermarks AND reduce resolution solely as poof, and have a clause stating once a high resolution CD has been delievered, no refunds of any kind can be offered. This way, you can separate poof with the actual product.

[Jerry_]

"Then she proceeded to say that she did not want to give any of the images back and that she had to come to terms with the whole thing. She said that getting her money back would solve the problem"

 

 

 

You have one example of a stalemate. If the bride wishes to keep the images, you keep the payment. Simple business law issue: a service was provided per your agreement. (The tough part is the wedding coordinator _ you may have to go into the "wilderness" solo to gain your wedding contacts.)

[kelly_flanigan1]

Paypal the husband some beer money. Take him fishing or to a pro game. How does he feel about the matter?

[conraderb]

David - for 400 weddings, this is not too bad :-)

 

JK.

 

I would politely ask for the wedding coordinator's thoughts on this, saying that you want to be responsive to the client and understand her complaint as much as possible.

 

If she is a pro, AND if your work is fine, then she will probably see this and know what is going on. If she agrees w/ the client, then you have a problem on your hands.

 

I had an engagement portrait client this summer referred by a coordinator, and a month ago the coordinator told me that the wedding was a nightmare and that the client didn't pay any of the vendors :-( It was one of the two couples I have ever worked with that I didn't have a good feeling about, and now i know to trust my gut a bit more.

[john_h.1]

I must disagree with Mariah's comparisons and suggestion.

 

David reports that his client was "1. unhappy about the quality 2. I did not follow her list of shots she wanted 3. She felt the quality was unprofessional 4. She felt there where too many candids and not enough of her and her husband"

 

Mariah explains that, in her case, "the quality of the pics were great, my photog didn't do any of the requested shots and didn't do any portraits of me and my husband (and / or daughter). All we had were candid and not very good ones."

 

The is a huge difference here. Failing to produce "any of the requested shots" is clear. None were done. Not following a list, if true, means at least SOME requested images were not provided. As is well known, it is very difficult to pull off every single request for reasons that have been discussed on this site many times. If the photographer is unable to produce every single image due to circumstances they cannot control, their performance is likely excused. If they fail to produce every image but produce the large majority of them, their performance is likely satisfied under the doctrine of substantial performance. In any event, there is no allegation that Dave did not prodice "any" of the photos. A completely different standard is involved here then.

 

Likewise, a scenerio where "all we had were candid" is not the same as "too many candids" and "not enough" pictures of a groom. Here too may be issues of good faith efforts and substantial performance. Moreover, this issue may merely be subjective opinion by the client.

 

Even though the quality of Mariah's wedding is conceded as satisfactory and David's client alleges the opposite, Mariah's claim was based on a total breach of the photographer's duties which is not the issue in David's instance. Unless they are truly poor or deviant from samples provided, it is very probable that the duties have been fulfilled as to quality.

 

When things go wrong with a wedding it is truly upsetting. If a vendor totally fails to perform, then it is good cause for anguish. If one merely doesn't like the results it may be very undesirable but it is not justification to demand refunds. We don't know if the cliant has legitimate claims but they are not the same as the other wedding.

 

The refund suggestion referenced above is troubling. The suggestion is to have a client, who already expressed complete dissatisfaction, express the same in numeric terms and then base a refund on that amount. That's crazy. Think about it. Your fee would not governed by previous agreements, contracts and performance but by the mere whim of someone who wants a complete refund. If any refund is appropriate, it should be based on whether or not a reasonable person would believe that the bride was presented with what she bargained for.

 

As always don't take our comments as legal advice.

[savagesax]

Let us know if you get on TV - Judge Judy or something. Anyway, no refund for sure, perhaps offer her a family portrait, and a future baby sitting. As for the people you did not photograph, offer to do some shots of them. Rent the hubbys tux, and talk to her florist and see if you can get the same arrangement. The tux rental for a few hours will probably only be about $60/80 and same with the her flower arrangement. Take whatever shots she wants. This may actually add to your sales.

 

Can you post your images? I, for sure would like to see what the complaints are. You sound pretty experienced.

[david_norell]

Wow, I'm overwhelmed with all of the advice. Thanks.

 

Unfortunatlel as many have stated, the disk may have been copied. I typically give the disk since I have never had such a request so I didn't think I would have to be asking for the disk (or images back). But I will take some of the suggestions I've been reading like possibly watermarking low res images and making them sign in the future.

 

Next, I have to say that my contract at the time was very basic (it has changed since). But agian, this was due to me never having such a problem.

 

 

The package was my basic package and covered only creative services and 100 4x6 reprints of thier choice.

 

After I learned about the complained (originally from the coordinator), the groom had sent in the print request, but never mentioned to me there was a problem.

 

It wasn't until Saturday that I received another call from the coordinator stating she received an email from the groom and his dad.

 

I telephoned the groom twice and he never returned my call.

 

Monday (today) the coordinator called and said that the bride called and said that the husband was angry and didn't want to talk to me. I was floored. So I called the bride and that's when I learned about all of this.

 

Now, I forgot to add that the bride said she had an album made on her own (there was no album part of this pacakge). But she told me she was too embarassed to show it to friends. I don't understand why she would have one made to begin with. I don't understand why the groom wouldn't address the issue in his email along with his print order.

 

The bride then proceeded to tell me that she didn't like the way I shot things. So I was even more confused...was it the qulaity or the style?

 

I offered her a storybook album. I would custom design it and she would have something she could be proud of to show her friends.

 

She refused that.

 

So I guess I will wait to meet with her and take notes and see what the real problem is.

 

Thanks agian for some great suggestions.

 

David

[lou korell]

If you have had a long relationship with the wedding coordinator she obviously knows the quality of your work. If you really trust that relationship you could try showing her the pictures and ask her if she thinks it is representative of your typical work. If she doesn't understand the concern from the bride maybe she will help you with the situation.

I know some would say don't get her into the middle of it but she already is because she's the one who was contacted first and her reputation is also on the line since she referred you to them.

 

If the bride is refusing any of your offers for additional items, it sounds a bit like the pics for free scam that people are mentioning.

If she bothered to make an album from pictures she disliked so much as to want a full refund, I hardly think she felt that bad about them.

If she really was upset about the images she would come to you crying rather than angry. A bride and her wedding memories are emotionally tied. The anger or demands displayed here don't seem like a typical bride who just wants you to make things right with the pictures. She wants money instead. Fishy, yes? And they sent you a print order? Hmm.

 

Lou

[ian_cooke1]

Lots of people seem interested in this topic! Some good advice and some bad (in my

opinion).<p>

To me, basically I'm thinking this is just another good argument for NOT including high-

resolution digital files in your basic packages. Make the client pay a premium for them

either

explicitly or as part of a more expensive package with prints and/or an album. Seems like

you would retain more control in that case overall. And any "valid" complaints would come

before any high-res files were handed over or any album could be made, thus making any

refund (if any was warranted) more plausible..... although I'm just guessing that this

particular bride is just making a fuss to try and recoup some money.

[bms]

Wow, I just stumbled over this thread.

 

"Paypal the husband some beer money. Take him fishing or to a pro game. How does he feel about the matter?"

 

and maybe pay for anger management classes?

 

Honestly, it seems like this is turning into a major headache for you. I almost suspect there are other issues at hand (4 mo after the wedding.....). They seemed to have liked the pictures at first, now they don't - if they are NOT looking for a freebie, something is up. The psyche can be a bitch!

 

My thoughts:

* good shoots - bad shoots 399 to 1 - not a bad score!!!

* anything that is not in your contract is you going beyond what is required - act accordingly

* if you yourself are not happy with the pics, she may have a valid point - give her the benefit of the doubt

* if not refunding will gives you a bad rapport with future clients/referrals, it may be 'cheaper' to offer a partial refund. Maybe just cover your expenses.

* you have already rewritten your contract - good!

 

Best of luck!

[mel_adams]

What an intresting topic this has been. Unfortunately i have noticed this topic after the meeting with the bride, however i would like to know the outcome(and i would imagine so would everyone else), so if you could let us know David that would be great. Hope it turned out okay for you. Cheers Mel

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

The bride should have reviewed your past work prior to the wedding and known what she was buying. I would not refund anything as long as the work is similar to your portfolio.

 

Good luck. Photography is fun, but people can be a pain in the a**.

[edsel_adams]

At sales meetings, and on my contracts. We stress the fact that we are providing a service, and attempting to the best of our abilities to please our clients aesthetically. In other words: I get paid to show up at your wedding. Providing you with a product (the pictures) is secondary to what lawyers call "performance" (i.e. showing up and working). If I show up, I get paid. If you are having a bad hair day, the caterer served lousy food, and you don't smile for my camera. Am I liable? We guarantee only that "technically" (exposure,composition and presentation) the pictures will equal the samples we showed them.

[kevin cook - stratford upo]

"If was a home or work computer it could be way out of wack compared to yours (presuming your's is calibrated)."

 

I don't think we are going to ever get away from providing images on a disk these days. People know what's what. Back in the film days clients imagined a dark room with highly specialised equipment, 'boffins' working on highly specialised processes etc etc. These days everyone knows what a JPEG is and how easy it is to get one printed!

 

I always state on the DVD inside sheet that images may vary depending on the screen resolution and it's calibration. I also state that 7 x 4 is the maximum and they should contact me if they want bigger. I also copy protect the CD/DVD.

[john_h.1]

"the groom had sent in the print request, but never mentioned to me there was a problem... ...the bride said she had an album made on her own"

 

But the images were unacceptable? Ask the bride to bring in the album. It might say who put it together or you could ask. If there is a way to get your own photo of the album you have proof she made one. If you contact the maker, they might tell you if complaints were made.

 

The husband is "too angry" to talk to you? This whole thing sounds ridiculous. Good luck man.

[nolefan32]

"I don't think she gets to keep the pictures AND not pay. And I don't think she gets a full refund regardless. "

 

I'm not a wedding shooter, but I do agree with Marshall on this one. She doesn't get to have her cake and eat it, too. Sounds to me like she's trying to pull a fast one, get you to do the job, get the prints, then demand her money back because they weren't "absolutely perfect" (but apparently good enough to keep in the album anyway).

 

I think she gets one or the other -- she keeps the prints and pays the full price, or she returns the prints and gets a reasonable portion of her money back (minus a set-up fee, as you did invest your time).

 

The thing you have to be careful of is just how big of a mouth she may have and how many friends she might have that are getting married in the near future. You don't want her spreading bad word about you so that you lose potential business.

[al_kaplan1]

Consider the people she knows and would brag to about scamming you. Some would admire her for it. You don't need them as future clients. They'd just be more trouble. The other group of people that know her already understand that she's a bit of a kook and they won't take her bitching and complaining seriously, figuring that she was just trying to scam you anyway. Stand firm! Then go around to the local labs,including the one-hours at the drug stores, show them a few sample pix from that wedding so they know who's involved, and tell them that she does not have a copyright release to get copies made, and remind them of their legal liability should they make copies.

[russ_butner___portland__or]

This is ridiculous. She wants to keep the pictures and a refund? No way!

 

Russ

[hooman_b]

I haven't read the responses, but I feel, bottom line, she just needs money for some reason and is trying to scam it from anyone in anyway she can. 1 complaint out of 400 (40 x 10 years) is nothing. I wouldn't worry about it and move on.