bobatkins Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 I'm using and external HD (firewire) as a backup for a backup (temporary photo and video files) and it's giving me some problems. <p> Every so often (every few months) it will generate an error message as below: <p> <center><img src="http://www.bobatkins.com/temp/error.jpg"></center> <p> It's unpredictable. I've been writing to the disk when a power failure has happened and the disk has been just fine. I've unplugged it while running with no errors. On the other hand I've been using it and it's suddenly gone belly up with that error message. It's a 250GB Maxtor 6 (B250R0), Windows XP, NTFS file system in an external USB/Firewire enclosure (not sure of the manufacturer). <p> I've done extensive surface disk verification using several programs (including Spinrite) and none of them show any problems at all. I can recover the data by grinding though the disk for 3 hours with a data recovery program like "GetDataBack" and the recovered data looks OK. <p> I assume that the MFT entries in NTFS are getting corrupted somehow, though I don't know enough to be sure of that. I'm just wondering how! The disk itself always checks out fine at the hardware level. <p> Anyone seen something like this? I'm wondering if the interface in the external enclosure could be doing it somehow. <p> I suppose I could try a different external enclosure, but I might have to wait several months before I'd see anything anyway. <p> Obviously this system is currently only being used for data I can afford to lose (messing with large video files for example) and I'll be buying a new one for more important data, but I'd really like to know what's going on with this thing! <p> I've never been able to "fix" the problem. I have to recover (or toss out) the data on the disk. The a simple "quick reformat" bring it back into operation just fine. I have two partitions on the disk. Sometimes one has fails and the other is fine, once both failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjmeade Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 Bob, when my external HD did this, I unplugged the firewire and connected it via USB, once the PC had recognised the external HD, I could go back to firewire and it was still there. I'm not sure why it does this, but its a work-around that may help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitmstr Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 During the boot process the computer checks for all connected peripherals. Occasionally, it may not see external devices (it has happened to me with both firewire and usb devices). Usually, all you have to do is unplug it and plug it back and it will re-appear. If the drive letter is different that it was before you may have to re-assign it (if necessary). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobatkins Posted March 10, 2007 Author Share Posted March 10, 2007 I wish it were that simple! Unfortunately unplugging the device and/or cycling the power and/or rebooting the whole system doesn't help. Neither does switching from USB to Firewire or vice-versa. Once the fault shows up, it persists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stock-Photos Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 I'm sure you must have tried replacing the cable...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valen Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 Do you have write caching enabled on that disk? I have seen this cause problems before, though not this specific problem, and nothing this serious. If it is enabled you could try disabling it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff_drew4 Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 I would recommend "Perfect Disk" by Raxco. It will reorganize and do some serious disk maintenance. It works well on the few dozen systems I maintain. The first few times the whole process will take a long time to complete as it reorgs your files. Also consider "Registry Mechanic." I find that my XP registries take a beating. Running a registry repair and disk repair every few months will ensure a faster PC and more reliable. My "real" photographic systems are Macs and I rarely have the above issue with them. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobatkins Posted March 10, 2007 Author Share Posted March 10, 2007 Can't be the cable because the same problem show up via both the USB and Firewire interface (and of course they use different cables). I'll look at "Perfect Disk", but "Spinrite" is a pretty rigorous disk cheking and maintainance program and it finds nothing wrong with the disk hardware. Just looking quickly it seems that PerfectDisk is just a high end defragmentation program, not really a disk checker or disk fixer program Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugene_scherba Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 Check SMART data for the disk. If they are bad, there is a good chance the disk fill fail soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobatkins Posted March 10, 2007 Author Share Posted March 10, 2007 It's tough to check SMART data on an external USB/Firewire drive. Most don't report SMART properly and most SMART utilities don't seem to detect USB drives. BTW I do have write cache turned off on the drive to minimize potential problems when disconnecting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph_wisniewski Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 "Most" don't report? I've never seen any. Which ones do, and what software can read them? Unless something has changed radically in the last 6 months, the USB MSC (mass storage class) doesn't have messages for SMART, so you'd literally have to transplant the SMART drive into an ATA based computer to read them. The FireWire port speaks the same protocol as the USB port. Supposedly, some USB hard drive enclosures have USB/IDE bridges that can pass the full ATA command set to the drive, but the people who say such things exist can't actually tell you where to find one, so they may be hallucinating it. My experience has been that if external drives fail at very long intervals, it's more likely to be a communication problem than a drive problem. And in that case, you need to be checking things like the cable: quality, condition, and what it runs close to that can disrupt communication. Also consider switching to USB, it's more "general purpose". FireWire was designed to connect one brand of video camera to one brand of computer, and any other use is just layer after layer of band-aids. There's also the issue of temperature (if the enclosure isn't fan cooled), vibration, and EMI susceptibility (if the enclosure isn't shielded and the cable connectors bypassed) of the drive itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoneguy Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 I just had this same problem last week. I accidentaly shut the disk off while windows was loading it. I just ran chkdsk on it from the run command on the start menu. It automatically fixed it, and I was back up and running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 The program HD tune version 2.52 detects my external old usb 1 and new usb 2 HDA's; flash-fobs; and the goober no name brand SD carder too. When plugging in a new HDA or flash device sometimes it takes a few seconds. One can read the HDA's temp; health settings and info; do error scans quick or longer ones. One can run a "benchmark" on my 4 year old usb 1 lexar flash-fob an its at 0.8 MB/second whether plugged into a usb 1 or 2 port. With the Ebay mystery brand SD reader its at 0.8 on a usb 1 port; and 3 to 8 MB/sec depending on what speed SD card I use. On a HDA with disc/platters the response is often say 60 at the outer radii; and say 37 at the inner. My latest Maxtor 300 gigs clock in at 80 MB/sec at the outer radii. With a 10 year old busmaster controller on my IBM 6589's the controller peaks at 12 to 14 megs/second straight across; since the controller is the bottleneck. A 10 year old drive thats only say 2 gigs will usually be only 2 to 5 MB/second at the outer disc radii. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitmstr Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 >>Once the fault shows up, it persists.<< Depending on the MOBO and/or the Firewire interface (whether it's built-in or an added card) it could be different issues. Does it happen only with that drive or does it happen with other firewire drives? It could also be the drive case/interface. I have had some defective units that would disappear, even on a Mac. After much testing, turned out to be the drive case. What version of XP are you running? How old are your BIOS? Your MOBO? The firewire interface? Any of this could be contributing and/or causing intermittent problems. I have found the Texas Instrument chipset to be the most reliable for Firewire interfaces. Did you ever get a "Delayed Write Failed" message? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 I think that some USB HDA connections and setups dont pass the SMART disc drive health info at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobatkins Posted March 10, 2007 Author Share Posted March 10, 2007 I tried chkdsk, but it wouldn't run. Just gave me an "unable to determine volume version and state" error message. When it's working I never get any error messages. I just wondered if I'd overlooked something simple, but I guess not. At this stage I'm not sure it's worth the effort of figuring out if it's some sort of MOBO/BIOS/Interface problem. I'll just slap on another (different brand) unit and see if that fails in the same way! I do have another USB drive that has not yet given me any problems, but it's one I don't use very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly_flanigan1 Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 Some of these exteranl HDA units run hot; often the designers slept thru thermo 101. :) In disc drive troubleshooting sometimes the problem is the HDA "problem" goes away when removed from the customers computer chassis; enclosure etc. It would be interesting to see the SMART data on the hda's temperature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.W. Wall Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 Giampi - Not to hijack the thread, but I get a a "Delayed Write Failed" message sometimes with an older external LaCie 200GB firewire drive (porsche design case). Goes away on reboot. What's up with that? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff_drew4 Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 Bob, If you have corrupt data on the disk, an intermittent & erroneous disk error is possible. Perfect Disk can fix by reorganizing, but it may be more work than you wish. Another method is to create a full backup of the disk, elsewhere, and then reformat & repartition it. That will fix any boot sectors issues and recreate the roots & partitions. I s'pose it could also be the port on your PC. I occasionally get USB drops in voltage on one PC which also has a 320GB external drive. I'm speculating on the power supply & mainboard relationship for mine. A trip to Best Buy almost cost me a couple hundred! New, external HDD are well under $1/GB these days! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill koenig Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 I just added a external HD here's a link to what have. This enclosure has a fan and also works SATA HD's all for under $150.00 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817145660&ATT=17%2D145%2D660&CMP=OTC%2DFroogle http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16822148140 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill koenig Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 For some reason the link to the enclosure didn't come up. Here it is http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817145660&ATT=17%2D145%2D660&CMP=OTC%2DFroogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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