Why does using a profile give me disastrous results?

[onlooker]

I just got an Epson r2400. When I use basic print functions to print a

particular photo, I'm very pleased with the results, but when I tried using a

profile, the results were terrible. The colors were a mess; the dark background

was streaked. I have read Mastering Digital Photography, but have never applied

anything I read until now. Hopefully someone here is so familiar with this

complex process they can advise me

 

I started with a 35mm negative that is somewhat oversaturated and scanned it in

at high resolution. The file is 9mb. I followed the r2400 manual as carefully as

I could, but it's a little older than my CS2 version of Photoshop.

 

Per the manual, I set the color settings to North American PrePress (the manual

said US PrePress, which wasn't an option), Adobe RGB (1998), and chose to use

embedded profile in the window that appeared.

 

The instructions said I could change the profile so ColorMatch RGB, which I did

because it slightly desaturated the image.

 

I checked the orientation and scaled the picture to the paper size.

 

Under Print with Preview, I chose SPR2400PremGlsyBstPhoto.icc and Perceptual

(which the r2400 manual says reduces saturation). The Color Handling option was

not shown in the Adobe book, so I left it on Let Photoshop Determine Colors.

(Was that a mistake?) I also selected Use Black Point Compensation.

 

Then I printed the picture, per the instructions (selected appropriate paper

type, turned off high speed and edge smoothing, clicked on the ICM box, and

turning off No Color Adjustment.)

 

If you know what I did wrong and have any other suggestions on how to increase

my understanding of this process, I'd be forever grateful!

[michael_ziegler2]

Do you calibrate your monitor? I have the R1800 and basically use the same settings as best as I can remember (not sure about black point), allowing Photoshop to determine my colors. I calibrate my monitor every two months which establishes a probile that I believe is used by PS. I am very happy with the color rendition.

[patricklavoie]

i dont know why and where you use colormatchRGB, i nerver use it? did you monitor calibrated? did you try the can profile instead? are you using genuine epson ink and paper? did you try a regular, well expose image first? is it only that image that print strangely or every images?

 

 

answers those questions and maybe i could help you...at leats i try : )

[patricklavoie]

the monitor profile is not use by photoshop and should not be, only for the monitor, in you monitor profile...you dont want to see it in ANY of photoshop menu.

[William Kahn]

What Michael said. Calibration is critical.

 

With my 2200, in Edit Color Settings I leave it on Adobe RGB. North American PrePress is correct. I think US PrePress was the old name for it. If you're using glossy paper, are you also using Photo Black ink? Matte Black is a problem with glossy paper. Rendering intent should be Relative Colorimetric.

 

It looks like your printer dialogue settings are right, but just to be clear, you want to check No Color Adjustment under ICM. Not sure what you meant by turning it off.....

[William Kahn]

Forgot to add: using Black Point Compensation is correct.....

[ronald_moravec1]

Calibrate the monitor. Configure CS2 to work in sRGB. Return the Epson to default settings, ie sRGB. Make a small test print for color. In the advanced tab for the epson printer is a color correction dialog. You can make changes to the image between the monitor and printer if required.

 

See Ken Rockwell`s site on how he prints. Basically cameras all work on sRGB, and he does not change anything.

 

I only change color if the pic was done under improper color temp conditions like open shade with a blue cast.

[beauh44]

If you are calibrating/profiling your monitor, make sure you're not "double profiling" with Adobe Gamma loading at startup. Click Start>Run and type in msconfig and enter. Go to the startup tab. If you see Adobe Gamma on the list with a checkmark beside it, un-check it. You don't want to run Adobe Gamma along side a monitor profile and you definitely don't want to use your monitor's profile as your working space in PS. Most use Adobe RGB or even sRGB. Good luck!

[michael_ziegler2]

Patrick, The following article describes how PS uses the ICC profile.

 

http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/knowledgebase/index.cfm?id=321608

[sunrisers]

Sounds silly, but I had similar problems when I first got my Epson 1800. Eventually, it was

the paper I was using not matching the profile exactly and I'm pretty sure it was the premium

glossy paper too. Took me ages to figure out I had to download a new profile from the

Epson website (wasn't in the prepackaged profile bundles) and that solved my problem. But

you have an aweful lot of variables going on here (scanning, converting, etc) so maybe your

first step is to work with an image where you can predict the results better and then work

backwards. And try two or three different paper types (with the appropriate profiles set).

good luck

[patricklavoie]

<...Configure CS2 to work in sRGB. Return the Epson to default settings, ie sRGB...> what a strange never heard before things to say!?

 

why set you PS to work in sRGB? why not in AdobeRGB? why not using dedicated profile?

 

whats work for me professionaly speaking and for many others (maybe all pro or prosumer) that use correctly the Epson.

 

1_PS in Adobe RGB

2_picture in adobeRGB

3_LET PHOTOSHOP DETERMINE COLOR

4_choose the profile accordingly

5_use epson genuine paper and ink (to start)

6_PERCEPTUAL (i dont see see any variation at that stage when i print using perceptual or relative colorimetric) black point ON.

7_Choose you paper, speed, quality

8_NO COLOR MANAGEMENT should be selected in the Epson dialog.

 

If your images still look bad after, good chance there is something rong in your monitor calibration, your profile, your image, your print or you : )

 

It is by the way how Epson recommend to use there printr in there manual, and how many user recommend it also. If it work for us, it should work for you.

4_

[patricklavoie]

Thanks Michael, my mistake..i want to say < do not put your monitor profile in ANY PS menu...> use adobe RGB as your color space. I should not had say that PS dont use you monitor at all.

[cameradude]

Larry,

 

One mistake I see is that you chose your color profile of Adobe RGB 1998 after you opened up the picture. The color profile settings will not apply to that picture after you open it up, if you do, there is an extra step you need to take to apply this, sorry, I don't know it off the top of my head.

 

And one more mistake is letting PS determine colors. If you are using genuine Espon ink/paper, let the printer determine colors.

 

I have an R1800 at home, and at the lab we have a Epson 4800(?), I let the printer determine colors when I use genuine Epson ink, and the pictures are turing out BEAUTIFUL!

 

Good luck, and let us know what happened!

[michael_ziegler2]

Robert, the Epson R1800 manual specifically states to use the "let PS determine colors" setting. Having pictures turn out beautiful and having pictures match the colors seen on your monitor are two different issues.

[cameradude]

Michael, whatever your trying to tell me is fine, but I don't think I would want my 256 colors monitor wanting to match a photo, unless it was in black and white. . . .

[patricklavoie]

Robert_i am not sure i follow you either? how come you only have 256 colors on your monitor?.. is it a 14 inch 10 years old one? mine got million of color for the past 10years (i change monitor and copmuter every 2 years before someone ask)... And that is the whole point of having a monitor calibrated and a entire color managed workflow, being able to see on screen what you could/should get from your printer. I dont see the point of shoothing in RAW, and setting my picture in sRGB after. i dont the point of letting my printer color managed my print. i dont see why you just dont follow the epson procedure to print on those 2 extraordinary epson prnter that you got (owning myself a 2400. a 4800 and a 9800)

[Ed_Ingold]

Robert,

 

You do not understand the use of print profiles. A print profile is a correction factor across all colors and densities for a particular printer, paper, inkset and printer option setting. In order to use a profile, you must turn ICM ON, (printer) Color adjustments OFF, and select "Let Photoshop determine the colors". If you have a calibrated monitor, you get a good print the first time, every time, as close as possible to the appearance on the monitor.

 

"Photoshop CS2 for Photographers" by Martin Evening has a good overview of a color-managed work flow. "Real World Color Management" and other books by Bruce Fraser have more detailed information.

[cameradude]

Alright, so we are assuming that Larry is using a calibrated monitor.

 

What if he is not using a calibrated monitor?

[don_e]

The question of monitor calibration should be addressed, yes, but an uncalibrated monitor is not the cause of "streaking".

 

The question as to the meaning of "clicked on the ICM box, and turning off No Color Adjustment." really needs to be answered before a solution can be addressed.

[patricklavoie]

Robert_you are right. in fact you dont need a calibrated monitor to get good result on your printer; you need to calibrate your monitor to know BEFORE you have a print if he will look good or not. If you follow the *how to print* from epson or any user out there that know how to print, you should get amazing print even if you have a BW only capable monitor...assuming that you didtn do anything in PS that could compromise that quality.

 

If you read carrefuly the second answer to the question, mine, i was asking for more details about why & how Larry get bad result. Only after those questions are answer i would be able to help him with is problem (me and all other member indeed)

[onlooker]

You gave me a lot of tips, and as I come to understand what I'm doing I'm sure I'll try them all. But, I did make a few suggested changes:

 

- I chose Let Printer Determine Colors. I chose this because I figured my monitor was calibrated using QuickGamma, a free software that relies on my eyes.

- I chose Relative Colormetric, instead of Perceptual.

- I also checked all my settings and followed any procedural tips.

 

The printed image came out excellent.

 

From this thread, it's my impression that there's more than one way to achieve optimal results. There are so many permutations, but at least I have one that worked for one picture. I think that's a good start. Thanks.

[don_e]

"From this thread, it's my impression that there's more than one way to achieve optimal results."

 

There are two; manage printing via Photoshop or via the printer. Both should work well. Problems arise if you mix settings from both in the print setup.

[david_banks2]

If I understand your original post correctly, you applied two color management systems - both Photoshop and the printer. This may be why your print was more successful when you turned off PS color management.

[cameradude]

Thanks for responding Larry, I'm happy you got your print to come out looking better!