Death of Client What to do about contract?

[ellis_vener_photography]

"NOT ONE OF YOU would have said, just give them the stuff if the child had not died. "

 

Absolutely right.

 

As Dwight TYoakum once crooned: " But baby. things change."

[ellis_vener_photography]

Larry or Brooke,

A large part of business smarts is knowing when to stand tough and when standing tough just makes you an a$$.

[lou korell]

Hey, I don't think this was a question asked out of greed, only confusion. Let's not be harsh here and just offer encouraging advice to do the right thing. I'm sure it isn't an easy thing to deal with if you don't already know the answers. That's why Larry came to the forum to ask.

What we are asking him to do...let's do ourselves. Compassion.

 

Lou

[jaimie blue]

I would give it to them.

[jaimie blue]

This is a profound thread, the best one ever.

[kevin_blow]

I thought this forum was about encouraging, supporting and providing practical advice, NOT about making personal comments and being destructive. If we cannot abide by such common courtsey, perhaps it is better to offer no comments.

 

My only question is what are you hoping to gain by keeping the negs. Future sales are going to be poor, and you have everything to gain by an act of generosity. Offer them the negs and let them sort out the printing themselves or offer to do it at cost. Alternatively keep the negs and offer them a free album (costs within reason) with say 15/20 images of their choice. A win win situation for both parties.

 

Whatever you choose to do, I offer no comment. I remind myself of Proverbs 17v28 Even I (kevin) maybe thought wise if I keep silent,

and discerning if I hold my tongue. (slightly paraphrased).

[eric merrill]

Well, Larry did ask for suggestions.

 

I would ask the family what I could do to help. If it were me, I'd offer high-res files for free on a disc and a set of prints. All gratis. At least, that's what I've done in the past in similar situations.

 

And just on the off-chance somebody ends up reading this thread via a search engine result... http://www.nowilaymedowntosleep.org/ is a good place to look for infant bereavement photography services. All for free.

 

 

Eric

[conraderb]

Umm...Larry...reality check, my friend.

 

I would think that it would be a very kind and hospitable move to give them whatever you have worked on so far. If you haven't finished some things, that's fine - but if you have done work, I think that it would be in bad taste to try to negotiate.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the parents try to pay in full, and if that's what they want to do, so be it, but I think that this is just a bad luck situation on your part, but a tremendous opportunity for you.

 

Why? I am not Jewish, but I would guess that your photographs from that day will be treasured by the parents for a LONG time. This is an opportunity for you to give the parents a memory of their lost child - I don't mean to sound grandiose, but I think that it would be very decent of you to help them out.

 

Even from a purely cold-blooded business perspective, you know that these parents are going to have a special place in their heart for a long time as the guy who gave them one of the best books of their life - one they will look through with smiles and tears for a long time.

 

Think about this one carefully, my friend.

[iskandar_azaman___kuala_lu]

Are you actually thinking of making print sales from this? Just give them the proof album and whatever unedited video you have. If you haven't made an album, then no problems. If you have already made one, i'm guessing it's kind of outdated anyway. So just give it to them. But the key thing is you don't actually need to do anymore work for this client. So really, there is not much lost. It's such an old account that it shouldn't matter.

 

No need for negotiations. They'll contact you if they want some work done later on.

[amy cupp]

Give them away. Even if they offer money, I would not take it. The pictures are all they have left. Sometimes pictures are not that important to them until they can no longer hold that kid in their arms, kiss them good night, watch them get married, you get my point.

[t_n1]

How does one go about confirming the death of that child in the most polite, respectful way? Or does one proceed without confirmation? I ask politely because I've heard many stories over the years when the person will say anything for free products.

 

Second thought. When should someone charge/not charge when death is involved? Should funeral photographers never charge? If not, then should anyone involved in the funeral be charging for $$? Where do you draw the line? What about other hired individuals involved in the Barmitzvah?

 

I am not implying anything, just provoking thoughts and sharing questions I had while reading this discussion.

[khaisy]

It crazy that this is for Debate, You have two choices.

.1 Give them everything fro free and feel good about it what you have done, and they will appreciated it and tell many other how kind person you are.

 

2. gibe them nothing or trying to make a deal and if they choose not to take them, you will toss gain nothing but get a rap for the unkind mioney hungry photograher.

Larry, what goes around comes around.neither money or fame can show the great soul someone could have only kindness can do that.

[laurenm]

Being the person I am, I would first not think twice about giving them the proofs as you have insinuated that they were paid for anyway. You said they still owed for the album, video and prints yet, didn't say they asked for those. Just curious if video means slideshow or moving video? if the proofs are in a book and not at least 4x6, I would also give them a set of prints of all photos and a cd or negatives, then offer the album at cost (though I'd probably give the album for free).

 

With that said, I agree with someone above who said most of you were being a bit harsh on Brooke or Larry. He was afterall just asking for business advice and though i can only imagine how devastating it must be to lose a child, the devil's advocate has to wonder where is the line? The photos were from 3 years ago. Yes, I realize that was like a minute ago to the grieving parents, but what if it were 6 years ago or 10? Yes, it sounds evil and harsh but are photographers obligated if a client passes away within a certain window of time to give away their services?

 

I recently lost an uncle and photos from a cousin's wedding 6 months before which were originally nice to look at online became priceless. I contacted the photographer and offered to pay extra if they could allow me to purchase some prints and display them with credit on the photo board for the wake. I even felt uncomfortable requesting that he repost the gallery after it had expired without my purchasing ANY prints. The photographer was happy to repost the gallery and sell them to me at full price and charge me for overnight shipping. I didn't care what the cost was and was thrilled to have the images. I would have given them for free, but didn't expect him to. It was his choice. He is in business. Yes, this story is much different as I wasn't the client, nor was the client the one who died, but just trying to give some different angle to view this from.

 

Larry, I'm sure you are a better person than it appears from your post and you will find your way to the right thing to do.

[savagesax]

Well if it was me, give them EVERYTHING!

 

Also ask if you can make an enlargement, framed, of him as this is often done at the funeral. It is the most caring thing any photographer can do.

[jag1]

I would give your condolences but still charge them for the work you performed three years ago. No question about it, no jewish morality codes broken here.

[linda degrasse]

If it were me, I would give them everything with my condolences.

 

"Why is it these pictures are so precious to them now that the kid is dead but unimportant before hand?"

 

If you have to ask the question, I am not sure that you will understand the answer. I am a parent with a "dead kid" and I can tell you that anything and everything to do with that "dead kid" is more important than anything. Better for you to remain in ignorance than for you to learn through experience.

 

So many people wonder why it has taken them so long to get back to the subject of these photos. It sometimes takes a long to start that long journey back to regular life. You must understand that you are never able to return to "normal." Normal is different now.

 

As I said, I would give them everything. Believe me when I say that they have been through hell.

[david_grenier]

Just to make sure I understand the order of events here:

 

1. Larry photographs and videotapes a Bar Mitzvah in 2004. Having never done a Bar Mitzvah (my business parter's only demand when we merged is that we never shoot Bar Mitzvahs, since he'd done a ton as an apprentice) I assume they work the same as weddings. Like a full album and videos and stuff, not just some pictures posted online so they can order prints.

 

2. Clients pay for most of the service but never pay the final balance, pick up their proofs, or order their album. I'm not sure if Larry's company normally delays video editing and the like until the final balance is paid.

 

3. Fast forward 3 years. The child in question passes (God rest) and the parents get in touch with Larry saying... what exactly? Do they say they want the album and edited video? Do they just want the proofs? Do they say they want to settle up their tab?

 

4. Larry releases the proofs to them at this point? Or was that earlier?

 

Did the clients ever indicate that financial stress was the reason they hadn't paid the balance, or just that they never got around to it?

 

If I were in your shoes and if my understanding of the situation is correct, I'd give the clients the proofs, negatives and raw footage so they can do what they want and forgive the remaining balance.

 

However, if they still wanted a completed album and edited video and whatever else came with the package, I would require payment of the remaining balance, or at least whatever your costs are going to be.

 

Actually, if the child passed very recently and they're dealing with the funeral and other stuff like that, I'd probably just give them what I had on hand and tell them they should give me a call in a few weeks when things are more settled if they still want me to complete the contract. That way you're putting the ball in their court and giving them some options without putting pressure on them or making them feel like freeloaders. If they never get around to calling you for the album, no big loss. If they do call you they're actively affirming that they want the contract completed and are likely ready and able to pay the balance.

[larry_moore]

David

You agreed with me! Nice that some one did not immediately assume something nasty on our part.

As some sumised this was an ongoing irritation since the time of the event. There have been dozens of missed appointments and promises to pick up and pay their balance none taken.

In fact it was not the parent who called by a friend of the family who did offer to pay that was where the problem arose from. The child died recently when I was out of town.

HAD I been around I would have brought the proofs to the funeral and provided a photo to display but since we did not know about it till the phone call it became more complex.

Photographers are one of the few businesses where people just think we should routinely GIVE away our services and undetake direct expenses often with other business-who charge.

As more people on this forum actually are in business they may find that they too find themsleves in the midst of real world dilemnas Lets hope some greater kindness comes their way.

Brooke Moore

[annealmasy]

Brooke, I don't think David was "agreeing" with you; seems that he was just trying to clarify

some of the issues I asked about above. I'm still not completely clear on the chain of events,

but I DO agree with David's last paragraphs about how to proceed.

[jimstrutz]

I would probably give them what I had as well, but That's probably because I have a soft head, and besides, this is not a business I rely on to pay my bills.

 

However, why is it OK for a photographer (or florist, funeral director, organist, etc.) to charge for services at a child's funeral, but not OK to charge for the services done at a BarMitzvah before the child died? I understand the parents are grieving, but why should a service provider give up a financial claim because the child of a client died?

 

I don't get it. And yes, I have children (and grand children), but I still don't get it.

[William Michael]

A very long and interesting thread which, from many of the responses, reinforces the fact that many businesses decisions, photography businesses included, are based upon scant fact and emotional quick draw responses.

 

 

1. Enough of the necessary facts were not outlined in the original question to allow for any adequate professional or business based response.

 

 

2. As Mr Blow pointed out, there are far too many emotive responses, and worse, too many charter assessments, which were not requested. (However, I think such responses are in fact useful and I would not like to see them edited out: I mention this as I do not want my comment interpreted to suggest that removal of the personal comments is necessary, au contraire: my position is that there is far too much editing of free speech, thought at photo net.)

 

 

This display indicates just how many business decisions and advice are based on a shortfall of fact, and an abundance of emotion.

 

 

3. Even after Mr Grenier`s attempt to clarify the chain of events: there are still some questions unanswered, but as Ms Almasy points out we are closer to getting all the history which was asked for quite early on.

 

 

4. A basic logic in the case is boiled down simply by Pastor Strutz when he asked the question about fees for a funeral.

 

 

5. Have any of the respondents been contracted to photograph a funeral or corpse? We have; and have always charged for our professional services at our standard rate.

 

 

My bottom line in response to the question asked with the information supplied thus far, and if my assumptions outlined are correct:

 

 

It appears that the account was requested settled by a friend of the family. In such a case that account should have been settled and all remaining articles from the account delivered to the original contracting party (I assume the Parents), not the person paying the account.

 

 

The fact that you (Brooke) were out of town at the time the account was asked to be settled and it was not, indicates that:

 

 

1. There is a systemic flaw in your business operations systems whereby accounts either cannot be paid when you are out of town or,

 

 

2. As this is an unusual circumstance whereby your direct input was required you could not be contacted directly: or

 

 

3. You were contacted but the complicated / unusual nature of the situation meant a decision could not be made immediately.

 

 

If 1 or 2 are correct then these shortfalls in your business system needs addressing. Having initially refused the offer to settle the account then you are now in a position to contact either that party who made the offer; or the Parents or both.

 

 

As you indicate you have made several requests of the Parents previously, without further detailed information of these communications it seems it would be NOT appropriate to contact them at this time.

 

 

However, it is appropriate at the earliest opportunity to contact the party who offered to settle the account: this is not only good business practice: but you as the Principal (I assume) of the business is a common courtesy you at this time owe. Because, it seems your business had previously refused to take payment of an account, which although being unusual circumstances, was prima facie, an incorrect decision, which you need to address immediately.

 

 

Prior to contacting the prospective payees of the account you need to work through the whole account and establish what is actually owed and what is required to be paid and what items are outstanding for delivery, and what, if any, items are to be pro bono.

 

 

Such needs to be articulated professionally and directly to those paying (assuming the offer is still there): and with compassion for the moment. However the goods outstanding upon payment (I assume) will become the property of the initial contracting party, and this fact too needs to be articulated directly. And the details of the payment and any pro bono components need to be clearly defined when delivery is made to the original clients.

 

 

If the offer to settle the account is withdrawn, then, the circumstances having changed it is encombant upon you to contact the Parents (original contracting agents) and advise them (compassionately) that you are aware of the change in circumstances and having clear in your mind what is available, advise them of your intentions.

 

 

The meetings outlined above should be in person.

 

 

Note that my comment, detailed as it is, is really not adequate, because the actual situation is still not clear to me, even after three readings of the thread, hence much of my answer makes assumptions.

 

 

It seems that this is a real business and practical problem, on which advice has been asked, but it seem the LACK of DETAIL has reaped: irrelevant comment; cursory assumption; some vitriol; and not required personal assessments.

 

 

Whilst those responding take responsibility for their responses; the inadequacy of the commentary on this thread is because of the lack of detailed information provided in the first inst; which is also a systemic business flaw which needs addressing; the quality of advice from a `professional` cohort is relative to the amount of factual, computable and relevant information provided.

 

 

I hope that this assists as this appears a valuable opportunity to clear your books of an old account, but moreover bring conclusion, to an account which has sought avoidance, (another question why so?), for many years. And with conclusion, perhaps give provide some happiness after a period of sadness.

 

 

WW

 

 

PS: Not that is bears on this thread, but: I do have children; I have photographed Funerals, and have buried several of my Relatives and Loved Ones; and sat aside those Passing.

 

[yankfan]

Do what feels right to you. That's about all I can say.

[larry_moore]

Brooke had asked the question about what to do under these unusual circumstances. I am going to jump in on this.

 

This was admittedly an unusual circumstance. It was a photo/video combination. Photography was a combination of film and digital. We had not at that time made a complete switch to digital.

 

Brooke did the formals at the Temple. I then continued with the stills. The video was done with a hired camera man.

 

For background the illness in the family was the mother, not the son. The son died after a relatively brief illness. For all practical purposes it was a sudden death. The failure to pick up the proofs had nothing to do with the illness of the son.

 

The video was a live full video of the service as well as the party. Our full video packages (see our price list and discription at larrymoorephotography.com Bar/Bat prices and discriptions are essentually same as wedding. We do give some flexability based on circumstances) include stills and a wrap up/ memories section.

 

We have never talked with the parents nor have they called us. The other night I talked with a friend who had called about the video. I explained to her that under the circumstances the edit of the video would be different that what we would normally do. I discussed with her that the video could be essentually a memorial video. I told her that it would include the stills. She mentioned that the family had gotten one of these disposible video cameras which they used on a vacation. I offered to include that in the video. I didn't discuss anything about money.

 

It is important to understand that we are in business the same as a florist or a funeral director. Like these business we have to treat situations with understanding. But also like these people we are under no obligation go GIVE away our product because unfortunate things happen. We often do but we are under any moral or ethical obligation.

 

What we do concerning the album at this point is up in the air. As I stated earlier we have not talked to the parents and for legal reasons we will have to and not just work through a friend. I did reassure the friend that we are understanding of the situation and will deal with the issue with the appropriate compassion.

 

As a note: both Brooke and I contribute to this forum under the same heading.

[alec_myers]

I'm trying to put myself in the position of the family. Admittedly, an impossible task, given the circumstances. While I would expect the generosity and support of my friends, I think I'd find it a bit off for strangers or people with whom I have only a business relationship (like a photographer) to enter into my world of grief by offering freebies or special reductions. I think I'd actually rather pay full whack for whatever I wanted to be supplied with, and might even find it condescending if it were otherwise.

 

Maybe that's just me, however.