m m Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 I have a really early M4-2, the one with engraved top plate and "Made in Canada" on the top plate. The problem is that the film sprocket holes fall between frames, also the last two frames sometimes stack up and have zero space between them. I sent the camera to Don Goldberg of DAG and after trying to adjust it he said that it was set at the factory and that he could not correct it (he didn't know about the end roll spacing problem, just the sprocket hole misalignment). He said that it was a very very unusual to see a Leica M with this sort of problem. Any Leica techs out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aplumpton Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Hi. I don't know where you are, but you might try David Yau, in Toronto. I believe he had about 13 years experience with Leica and more experience since being on his own. He has had training at the German factory. I am always happy with his work. David's number is 416 494-8988 or d.yau@rogers.com Regards, Arthur Plumpton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronald_moravec1 Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 My guess is the sprocket shaft is either splined or keyed or there is a hole bored with a set screw and basically as DAG says, is not repairable. A new transport mechanism may fix it, but cost will be high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinay_patel Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 "The problem is that the film sprocket holes fall between frames," Probably it's the way you are phrasing it but I'm not getting it. The film is one long blank strip of emulsion, and depending on how deep you insert the leader into (or through) the takeup, the # of sprocket holes from the beginning of the leader that are first engaged by the sprocket spool is variable. Are you saying that a full stroke of the advance lever doesn't advance the film far enough so the subsequent shot overlaps the preceding? If that's the case it wouldn't be a matter of repositioning the sprocket spool, it'd be the winding gearing that's at fault. Again, maybe I'm not understanding the problem because DAG surely knows whereof he speaks but maybe he's not understanding your problem--did you send him a sample negative strip? "also the last two frames sometimes stack up and have zero space between them." Are you shooting until the advance lever feels resistance, or stopping at 36? Sometimes trying to cram as many shots as possible on the roll can cause that to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jja Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 I don't know if I can address your problem, but in partial answer to you and Vinay, I have found, from experience, that the sprocket holdes never fall in the (albeit tiny) space between the frames. A 35mm frame is 8-sprocket holes long, from what I remember, and when cutting negatives the one never cuts into the holes but between them. I cannot address the second problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_shriver Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 If DAG can't get it right, I'd agree that he's right and there's a part manufactured in error. On the LTM cameras, getting the frames to break between sprocket holes is a matter of proper "timing" (meshing) of two of the gears. (Been there, done that, too many times.) I'm not at all surprised that in the much more complicated M4, it's a matter of how some parts were permanently assembled at the factory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jja Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Do the sprocket holes fall between frames as a general course, without exception, or does this occur irregularly? How much space is between the frames? The space between frames should be about the same as the distance between sprocket holes, no? At first I thought your problems were not related, but it may be the case that your stacking/ overlaping problem and the misalignment of the sprocket holes relative to framing are both due to the a problem with the gears. Could one of the gear teeth be broken, thereby causing slippage and the resulting problems? Sorry, just guessing here, but at any rate it seems a problem Don would have caught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 If DAG says that he can't fix it, you're screwed. Sell the piece of ##$%%$#. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m m Posted February 6, 2007 Author Share Posted February 6, 2007 AWW Bill! But it's so pretty! To answer a couple of questions: The sprocket holes always fall between frames, I don't force the last exposure advance, and sprocket holes are NOT supposed to fall between frames... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edsel_adams Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 I'd have to agree that if DAG says it's toast, it probably is. However, FWIW, I'd call Sherry at Golden Touch and see what she has to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim nichols Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 I had never even thought about the sprocket hole positioning before seeing this thread. I had to look through negatives from five cameras before I found an exception. Two Barnack Leicas, a Pentax and an Exa were all positioned perfectly. On a half-frame Mercury II, the holes alternate, with every other one falling between frames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_collier2 Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 End roll spacing probelm can probably be fixed. If DAG says the other can't be fixed, then it can't without major assembly replacement. I bought an early M4-2 once. Spent a fortune on it and caused several noted Leica repair techs to wish they had listen to their mothers and taken up coal mining. I got it running well and sold it on cheap after telling the buyer its previous problems and giving him a generous money back warranty. I wouldn't buy another early M4-2... for any f***ing reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael s. Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 First time I've ever heard or seen John C. even *think* about using a bad word. Evidently he feels strongly. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacques_minassian Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 FULLY ADJUSTABLE: above the sprocket gear there is inside the top two cams mounted on the sprocket gear axis. when the camera is cocked two levers fall into the cams lock position. yes it is factory set by way of adjustment. leitz make a tool guage just for that. one has full 360* adjustment over those two cams. the locking nut that clamps down on the two cam plates is a left hand thread and is designed to make this adjustment. this is not an unusual problem and is caused by someone in the past removing the sprocket and not adjusting it correctly. with a small spanner for that nut and the top off the adjustment can be made in minutes. i like DAG and you sent it to the right guy, so i going to think that there is another problem. which case he needs to look closly at those two cames. the cams are made with slight bumps around the center hole(both cams) so to not slip if forced. these bumps may be worn out or flattened. once this sprocket axis nut is loosened the cams and the shutter cocked the sprocket is brought to the correct position and fixed in place with something if you do not have the tool, then the axis nut is tightened as much as you can......i think left hand thread....too many brain cells ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ed_arvin___indianapolis__i Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 I had one that did the same thing. I used it and it took great photographs until it was stolen. It never bothered me. Use it. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_collier2 Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Umm, sorry about that. What can I say, it really was the camera from heck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacques_minassian Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 the part numbers for these two discs(Anschlagscheibe) are the following: 042-253.001-824 042-253.001-030 and the nut(Mutter): 042-253.001-031 note the part number with "253" that means it was first used and is the same as an m3. these part number are still the same for m6...no change in design. once tightened you need to use some anaerobic threadlock such as Locktite. i like Loctite "wick and seal" because it will penetrate after assembly in case the adjustment is off the first time around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m m Posted February 7, 2007 Author Share Posted February 7, 2007 That's great Jacques. Thank you for the valuable info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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