Advice on Crazy Thought

[nealcurrie]

I'm a teacher in a small school without a darkroom, but with strong support for

photography. There's nowhere to put a darkroom, but with the creep towards

digital, there's little sense in trying to get funds to build one.

 

I had a crazy thought:

 

I could offer a class that could would use film cameras (K1000s and the like) to

take pictures (black & white), develop them normally, scan them, and do

photoshop manipulation. I've never used a dedicated film scanner, so I'm not

familiar with workflow and time demands. The class would probably have a maximum

size of about 15 students.

 

Students could do low DPI scans then rescan for images they really like later.

This could allow me to force students to learn about things like exposure,

shutter speed, aperture, depth of field, while avoiding digital cameras AND

allow me to teach students about "digital darkroom" work. Images don't need to

be printed for students to assess them.

 

If people could answer all or any of the following questions, I'd be appreciative.

 

How long does it take to scan a strip of 5 or 6 negatives at 1200 DPI?

Is it easy to get 'usable' scans with negligible knowledge of photography.

Are film scanners durable?

Are used or low-end film scanners a worthwhile purchase?

How much does injet printing cost?

Does this whole idea seem feasible?

 

Thanks,

Neal

[roger_smith4]

I don't see the point of teaching the art of scanning as it is quite involved to get decent scans, probably a dying art, scanners are not particularly robust, are slow (up to several minutes per frame), etc. I scan film and don't own a digital camera, by the way.

 

Get some bargain bin 3 megapixel digitals and teach composition and post-processing instead.

[sam_thompson2]

The most difficult part in scanning negatives is the color cast. But since you are shooting black and white that shouldn't be a big problem.

 

But, there isn't much you can do with Photoshop with black and white images.

 

I would get an inexpensive point and shoot camera with manual controls like the Canon A530. They can learn about shutter speed and aperture using those cameras.

[mark feldstein]

Hi Neal: The dilemma you initially described continues even at the university level and at one where I teach part time some semesters or guest lecture the rest of the time, has been debating what to do with darkrooms for quite awhile. Personally, I'm a strong advocate of teaching film to students new to photography. When I say film, I mean the whole enchilada, cameras and darkroom from exposure, shutter speeds and aperture and being able to adjust the post-shooting variables. Melding the new(er) with the old(er) so-to-speak is certainly worthwhile because I believe learning film connects the students with the entire process too. To some extent it's what I've had to do with my own part of the biz, just processing and scanning the work not necessarily making high quality prints as I leave that to the publications I shoot for.

 

So, to answer your questions, I think your idea is very feasible and worthwhile. I can't tell you about inkjet printing But I understand inkjet cartridge cost can be pretty high if you use them a lot. I can say, however, that using an Epson V700 scanner with photoshop software it comes with, among others (costs about $500 bucks) takes maybe a minute or two per scan of 20 negs. I think the Epson is a real asset.

 

Before getting this scanner, I was essentially digitally impaired and getting this thing about 4 months ago was a major decision. But it was a turn key, plug and play deal from purchase at B&H in NYC to installation and getting it up and running took about 20 minutes. When I ran into an operator error problem, Epson tech support in Canada got me past in a a few minutes. They were great. It seems very well made, durable, versatile, and I'm glad to report that I don't need an inkjet printer yet, but still using my old HP for making B&W prints using toner, which for most test/proofing purposes, works fine, I think.

 

I understand what you're trying to do may leave you feeling like a trout swimming up stream but I nonetheless applaud your efforts and if I can give you any other input, lemme me know.

Take it light ;>)

Mark

[don_e]

"Does this whole idea seem feasible?"

 

 

Sure. What's your budget? Is the school making the purchases? Must it be new or is used okay? I assume the photoshop work will be done on the school's computers. Does the school already have K1000s or other suitable film cameras?

 

What are the ages of your students?

 

--

 

Don E

[nealcurrie]

Thanks for everyone's comments so far. I welcome all input.

 

The budget is unknown, but probably no more than $5000. We currently have the remains of some film cameras left over from the "old school" but not enough. Some manual film cameras would need to be purchased, but these are pretty cheap right now (they've gone up in price in the last year on ebay for some reason).

[don_e]

Neal,

 

For a printer I'd recommend a dye sub rather than ink jet for your purposes. There are less odds of hw problems. I think it would be amazing the number of ink carts 15 students could exhaust in a semester, not to mention paper. The Kodak 1400 gets good reviews, ink ribbon and paper come as a kit. Cost is easier to predict and control than an ink jet. Price for printer is under $500.

 

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2005_reviews/kodak1400.html

 

 

A 35mm scanner can be a major hit on the budget if you buy new, and new means Nikon for the best quality. Supply is iffy, I gather from reading these forums. The buyer at your school or in the district may have advice on this; as a school you might move to the head of the line for one.

 

Go to Amazon. Select "Electronics" for a search, and search on: Film Scanner.

 

I haven't used them, but if they are like most other scanners, the scanner sw should deliver a decent file fairly automatically. I wonder though whether it is worth the expense of buying one if you are not planning to push it but want simply reasonable quality scans. Perhaps several flatbeds for the same cost would be okay. Note a "film scanner" and a "photo scanner" are different beasts.

 

If you don't have enough 35mm manual cameras for everyone, there may be some available from other institutions who are phasing out their film classes. There may be some stores with new manual cameras in stock. I don't know how likely that is. But I'd rather talk to a reputable used store and see if they can round up what you will need.

 

Good Luck,

 

Don E

[t_feltus]

i think that the fastest and most cost effective way to do this might actually be to take the

film strips to a lab and have them scanned to disk on a Fuji Frontier. you can get pretty good

resoluion and quality in about a minute or so.

 

T

[robert_fisher4]

I think I'd have to agree with the last response. Scanning is an art unto itself. If you've never used a film scanner before, teaching someone else how to scan and get good results is going to be difficult. Even buying used scanners, your budget of $5k is going to be squeezed pretty tight if you also have to buy cameras.

 

For what it's worth, here's the approach I would take. Have them shoot colour neg. film and chromogenic b&w. You can still teach them about exposure but the upside both films can be processed at the local minilab. They can get a CD of the scanned images rather than prints, or in addition to and then manipulate the images in the digital darkroom. You've got both colour and b&w to play with. You can teach them about converting a colour image to b&w and also optimizing images that are already black and white. Contrary to what another member mentioned, there are a lot of things you can do with a black & white image. Toning, for example, is a skill that not a lot of people know how to do well.

 

If you want to have them shoot traditional b&w and process it themselves, that's fine. Some changing bags, tanks, reels, thermometers and such won't eat into your budget too much. I believe the minilab machines can scan traditional b&w film but not sure how good the scans will be.

[nealcurrie]

I live in Queen Charlotte, B.C., which has no photo-developing places within a 7 hour ferry ride :(, so the mini-lab idea is out, but thanks!

[robert_fisher4]

Well, that's what you get for living in the middle of nowhere Neal. LOL. Here in the centre of the universe (Toronto) that's not a problem. ;-)

 

OK, given your location, another way to approach this might be to forget about film entirely. Buy, say, 10 decent quality 6MP compact digicams. Have the students work in teams of two so they can share a camera. You should be able to pick these up for around $2500 to $3000 of your budget. Something like, say, the Kodak Z760 still allows control over the exposure but it's relatively inexpensive and no need to worry about getting film processed. Then pick up enough copies of Photoshop Elements for the students. At about $100 each, 15 copies is $1500 and you're just about at your budget. Pick up a mid-level photo printer that the students can print to and you're done.

[les]

Proper scanning is difficult and requires a steep learning curve, plus a lot of knowledge regarding color management and digital manipulation/corrections.

 

My advice would be to go ahead with (reasonably) cheap digital camera(s). While startup costs appear to be higher - in reality the cost of film/development very quickly makes things even (OK, I am not talking here about specialized software, state-of-the-art computers and some such). I shoot digital, but I also own a film camera and a dedicated film scanner which both see less and less use - I mostly use them for B/W film photography, as I believe film still has some edge over digital here. Just my 2c.

[nealcurrie]

Thanks for all the info & suggestions guys. I still have no idea what to do, but I did just buy (for me) a Pentax 6x7 with 3 lenses and a Saunders LPL 670 to stick in my basement :)))

[joseph_wisniewski]

Used film scanners are disasters. Low end are a worthwhile purpose, but you'll need more than one.

 

Inkjet printing is dirt cheap. Since you're running a B&W shop, get a couple of Epsons and load them with MIS quadtone inks. Either get a couple of CIS (continuous ink systems, big bottles of ink that sit next to a printer and connect to the print head with tubes) or buy your ink in 16oz bottles and refill the cartridges.

 

http://www.inksupply.com