Brad_ Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 <I>BTW: Everytime Brad smarts off about "Koolaid" -THIS is what he considers a suitable subject for giggles and grins: http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19781204,00.html Sure looks like a cute joke to me...not.</I><P> What??? No, Andy, that's what <B>you</B> think of. <P> "Drinking the Koolaid" has nothing to do with Jonestown and has never been used in that context. It's a popular metaphor, which loosely translated, means blindly believing in the marketing claims of a company's products and becoming an advocate of what their marketeers are serving up. Leica culture is a great example.<P> Try getting out more... www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 I think its funny that 6 months prior to release you could have written a list of the forumers who would be <s>complaining</s> singing praises about the camera, the real funny thing is that most of the "concern" comes from people who <s>don't shoot leica</s> are unbiased and capable of of independent thought, without need for resorting to make excuses and rationalizations to cover the product's shortcommings...<P> Six months ago, I would have put Vinay in that list. I certainly stand corrected on that. It's refreshing there are some people who can objectively look at raw data/information and come to conclusions outside the pull of the group's standards of pc behavior. www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rj Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 "unbiased and capable of of independent thought, without need for resorting to make excuses and rationalizations to cover the product's shortcommings..." When have you used the product, where are your pictures shot with it, did you sign up for Andy Piper's print and cd comparison so you can see first hand, did you go to a camera shop and handle the camera? Tell me what your Raw data/information is coming from so I can tell that you are unbiased. Is it all off the internet, because if it is I can't see how you can have independent thought on the matter without at least touching the camera or maybe looking at an actual print. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacob_brown Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 Brad is right, but the etymology of the phrase does come from Jonestown. http://www.wordspy.com/words/drinktheKool-Aid.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 <I>When have you used the product, where are your pictures shot with it, did you sign up for Andy Piper's print and cd comparison so you can see first hand, did you go to a camera shop and handle the camera?</I><P> Uh, no need to. The magenta pix from <a href= "http://www.popphoto.com/ popularphotographyfeatures/3403/marooned-leica-">Pop Photo</a>, Reichmann (when he eventually came clean), as well as photos from a few people here, in concert with leica's "solution," clinched it for me. www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 <I>Brad is right, but the etymology of the phrase does come from Jonestown.</I><P> No, it comes from the Merry Pranksters. www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rj Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 So your data is from the internet. I got it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 <I>So your data is from the internet. I got it now.</I><P> Ok, so it seems your position is the IR-magenta issue is imagined. That's OK with me. www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 And that leica's solution to the IR problem, also put out on the internet, is also imaginary. OK... www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rj Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 No, the IR magenta issue can be controlled. The fact is that the camera is the closest thing anybody is going to get to a film m in a digital camera and the actual users seem to be quite happy with the camera, or wait, they must be all religious fanatics who are living in camera denial. Anybody who actually makes the decision to buy and keep the camera is a koolaid sucking gnome who cannot think independently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rj Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 OK..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 <I>Anybody who actually makes the decision to buy and keep the camera is a koolaid sucking gnome who cannot think independently.</I><P> Yowza! Just when you think the knob maxes out at 10, someone manages to crank it up to 11. Good job! www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgh Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 And here I thought ( drinking kool-aid ) it had something to do with the 60s and a Grateful Dead concert *~), in that context 'kool-aid' and an M8 would make me see colors (magenta) in a whole new way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew robertson Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 "Now the question: I don't have the cash for an M8 but was thinking about an RD-1 but not the RD-1s. Where did you get your RD-1 and what did it cost?" They're the same exact camera, except for the 's' silkscreened onto the front. You can upgrade any old R-D1 to R-D1s spec with a simple firmware upgrade. The hardware is identical. I own an upgraded R-D1 and it is great. It has had its problems for sure. The RF went out of alignment but there are third parties who will fix that for you. Happens on Leicas too. But all in all it has been a damn solid camera. The issue with the 'screen' scratching is a non-starter for me - the screen is actually protected by a semi-disposable plastic barrier which you can pull off , discard, and replace. That's what gets scratched. It's the same on every DSLR I have ever seen too. That's why I chuckle at the money people waste on screen protectors - they spend more than the manufacturer's part which is less than $10 for the Canon ones. The Epson is great for low light photography. I will freely set a hand-holdable speed and shoot in any amount of darkness in RAW and I can usually pull a file suitable for good B&W prints from the murkiness. 4 stops under (25600) or more is usable, and has the look of 3200P. See http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00ByBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew robertson Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 Here's a shot at 25600 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew robertson Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 And the full sized crop of her eye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trex1 Posted January 14, 2007 Author Share Posted January 14, 2007 I'm pretty sure that the kool-aid reference does date to Jonestown. It is truly scary what people are willing to accept. I know a lot of koolaid has been going around lately, you all know what I am talking about, but politics is off limits on photonet, so I will not go any further. As for the Leica article, I have no experience with either, but I could not resist throwing it out for general Leica group consumption. Please accept my sincere apologies if anyone got indigestion from their kool-aid! On another note, similar to Andy, I've been a G user and an R1 user. Cannot afford to enter Club Leica, but it's interesting that there really is a huge yawning gap in the offerings available now that needs to be filled. The G was an interesting alternative to the Leica, and a digital G with a real RF and Canon style USM AF lenses would fill a niche pretty nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew robertson Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 Oops...<div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_piper2 Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 Actually, Wikipedia gives nods to both Brad's and my sources for "drinking the Koolaid" - "closely associated with Jonestown", and also with the Merry Pranksters', via the test of Tom Wolfe's "The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test". In the Pranksters sense of joining the club of the hip by drinking the LSD-laced - uh, flavored, colored water - well, sure! Buying into the M8 is absolute proof one is hip, cool, and with it. 8^) Unfortunately that has be usurped by the more perjorative use meaning "buying in to the (corporate) cult(ure)'s values" - by among others, Enron execs when they got someone new to participate in their phony deals. A dangerous phrase used out of context. Hey - I wish there were digital Contax Gs, digital Konica (oops, I mean Sony) Hexar RFs, a digital Ikon, and even a resurgence of the R-D1(s). I like rangefinders, and the more the merrier (since Merry is the theme for the day). Bring 'em on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
don_e Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 "Brad is right, but the etymology of the phrase does come from Jonestown. No, it comes from the Merry Pranksters." -- Brad As a meme, it comes from Jonestown. "Can you pass the acid test?" comes from the Pranksters, and nobody but old hippies recollect it or the koolaid it refers to. But I wonder if Jim Jones got the idea from Kesey? -- Don E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_gorman Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 No, the IR magenta issue can be controlled. Leica got it wrong. Only Leica Cult members would except having to put a filter on a lens to ensure the colors are correct. Indeed if they were honest they would except anything providing the name 'Leica' was on the box. The Epson RD is a proven product with no such issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgh Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 I got an R-D1 last month, as a long time Leica user I find it a very fun camera to use and very well built. Yes, it does have its issues and a few quality control problems that show up regularly it seems, but mine has been fine with a slight vertical alinement adjustment I decided to do myself easily in a few minutes. Image quality may not be as good as an M8 with its sensor size but for my needs it is fine and I find the analog style controls an advantage, maybe more 'Leica-like' than the M8 in that way. Make no mistake, the R-D1 does have a magenta problem too. My wife's black fleece jacket is a shade of deep purple, which I'm going to have to get used to this winter :-) Otherwise a great camera and at 1/3 of the M8 price for a digital 'M'. Can't say its 'better' than an M8, that's not the issue in my thinking, just a good camera at a reasonable price. I'm sure the M8 can make people that bought it happy. If it wasn't for all the digital M talk I wouldn't have thought of an R-D1, and for the future I will always be open to a better Leica digital so I hope it all works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rj Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 "The Epson RD is a proven product with no such issues." "Make no mistake, the R-D1 does have a magenta problem too. My wife's black fleece jacket is a shade of deep purple, which I'm going to have to get used to this winter :-)" So who is in denial now? Look, I will agree, there has to be more competition in the digital rangefinder/non dslr market so the price comes down and the cameras get better, but the fact is the Leica is it right now. The Leica camera can be better and time will tell if they will make a better camera, but right now for the leica shooter, your digital camera is here. Its kind of like when the Canon D30 was out, the camera was full of problems but people bought them because that was the choice then, and in time Canon came out with better designs. Rangefinder users have been stuck with one camera at a time, we need more choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_gorman Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 "Make no mistake, the R-D1 does have a magenta problem too. First time of heard that it had the same problem as the Leica M8. Does it mean it needs a special filter? Personally i would keep well away from these RF digitals until they sort out their issues. Unless of course you just a snapper who is happy with magenta blacks providing you have a RF in your hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbon_dragon Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 "5D - $2999 with rebate, M8 - $4800. 4,800/2=2,400. Therefore 2,999 <= 2,400? Interesting math. " I bought my 5D about a month ago at a list of $2800 from BHPhoto, and the rebate made that at least $2500 (or if you bought a lens the double rebate made it $2200). So his math looks pretty good to me. Plus if you factor in lenses the math gets even better since even expensive Canon lenses tend to come in under the Leica brand. I use Leica M2's with a modern 50 and 35 (and an older 90). When I decided to go digital, I just couldn't make myself buy a $5000 M8 when the Canon 5D was "half as much". I'm happy so far with my purchase. If I were really rich, I might have bought an M8 too, I'm sure it's a good camera. I'm not much put off by the IR filter, but it's just too much money for what you get in my opinion. I know others disagree and more power to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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