RD-1 VS. Leica M8, and the winner is........

[Brad_]

<I>BTW: Everytime Brad smarts off about "Koolaid" -THIS is what he considers a suitable

subject for giggles and grins:

 

http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19781204,00.html

 

Sure looks like a cute joke to me...not.</I><P>

 

What??? No, Andy, that's what <B>you</B> think of. <P>

"Drinking the Koolaid" has nothing to do with Jonestown and has never been used in that

context. It's a popular metaphor, which loosely translated, means blindly believing in the

marketing claims of a company's products and becoming an advocate of what their

marketeers are serving up. Leica culture is a great example.<P>

 

Try getting out more...

[Brad_]

I think its funny that 6 months prior to release you could have written a list of the forumers

who would be <s>complaining</s> singing praises about the camera, the real funny thing is

that most of the "concern" comes from people who <s>don't shoot leica</s> are unbiased

and capable of of independent thought, without need for resorting to make excuses and

rationalizations to cover the product's shortcommings...<P>

 

Six months ago, I would have put Vinay in that list. I certainly stand corrected on that. It's

refreshing there are some people who can objectively look at raw data/information and come

to conclusions outside the pull of the group's standards of pc behavior.

[rj]

"unbiased and capable of of independent thought, without need for resorting to make excuses and rationalizations to cover the product's shortcommings..."

 

When have you used the product, where are your pictures shot with it, did you sign up for Andy Piper's print and cd comparison so you can see first hand, did you go to a camera shop and handle the camera? Tell me what your Raw data/information is coming from so I can tell that you are unbiased. Is it all off the internet, because if it is I can't see how you can have independent thought on the matter without at least touching the camera or maybe looking at an actual print.

[jacob_brown]

Brad is right, but the etymology of the phrase does come from Jonestown.

 

http://www.wordspy.com/words/drinktheKool-Aid.asp

[Brad_]

<I>When have you used the product, where are your pictures shot with it, did you sign up for

Andy Piper's print and cd comparison so you can see first hand, did you go to a camera shop

and handle the camera?</I><P>

 

Uh, no need to. The magenta pix from <a href= "http://www.popphoto.com/

popularphotographyfeatures/3403/marooned-leica-">Pop Photo</a>, Reichmann (when he

eventually came clean), as well as photos from a few people here, in concert with leica's

"solution," clinched it for me.

[Brad_]

<I>Brad is right, but the etymology of the phrase does come from Jonestown.</I><P>

 

No, it comes from the Merry Pranksters.

[rj]

So your data is from the internet. I got it now.

[Brad_]

<I>So your data is from the internet. I got it now.</I><P>

 

Ok, so it seems your position is the IR-magenta issue is imagined. That's OK with me.

[Brad_]

And that leica's solution to the IR problem, also put out on the internet, is also imaginary.

OK...

[rj]

No, the IR magenta issue can be controlled. The fact is that the camera is the closest thing anybody is going to get to a film m in a digital camera and the actual users seem to be quite happy with the camera, or wait, they must be all religious fanatics who are living in camera denial. Anybody who actually makes the decision to buy and keep the camera is a koolaid sucking gnome who cannot think independently.

[rj]

OK.....

[Brad_]

<I>Anybody who actually makes the decision to buy and keep the camera is a koolaid

sucking gnome who cannot think independently.</I><P>

 

Yowza! Just when you think the knob maxes out at 10, someone manages to crank it up to

11. Good job!

[rgh]

And here I thought ( drinking kool-aid ) it had something to do with the 60s and a Grateful

Dead concert *~), in that context 'kool-aid' and an M8 would make me see colors (magenta)

in a whole new way.

[andrew robertson]

"Now the question: I don't have the cash for an M8 but was thinking about an RD-1 but

not the RD-1s. Where did you get your RD-1 and what did it cost?"

 

They're the same exact camera, except for the 's' silkscreened onto the front. You can

upgrade any old R-D1 to R-D1s spec with a simple firmware upgrade. The hardware is

identical.

 

I own an upgraded R-D1 and it is great. It has had its problems for sure. The RF went out

of alignment but there are third parties who will fix that for you. Happens on Leicas too.

But all in all it has been a damn solid camera. The issue with the 'screen' scratching is a

non-starter for me - the screen is actually protected by a semi-disposable plastic barrier

which you can pull off , discard, and replace. That's what gets scratched. It's the same on

every DSLR I have ever seen too. That's why I chuckle at the money people waste on

screen protectors - they spend more than the manufacturer's part which is less than $10

for the Canon ones.

 

The Epson is great for low light photography. I will freely set a hand-holdable speed and

shoot in any amount of darkness in RAW and I can usually pull a file suitable for good B&W

prints from the murkiness. 4 stops under (25600) or more is usable, and has the look of

3200P. See http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00ByBK

[andrew robertson]

Here's a shot at 25600

[andrew robertson]

And the full sized crop of her eye

[trex1]

I'm pretty sure that the kool-aid reference does date to Jonestown. It is truly scary what people are willing to accept. I know a lot of koolaid has been going around lately, you all know what I am talking about, but politics is off limits on photonet, so I will not go any further.

 

As for the Leica article, I have no experience with either, but I could not resist throwing it out for general Leica group consumption. Please accept my sincere apologies if anyone got indigestion from their kool-aid!

 

On another note, similar to Andy, I've been a G user and an R1 user. Cannot afford to enter Club Leica, but it's interesting that there really is a huge yawning gap in the offerings available now that needs to be filled. The G was an interesting alternative to the Leica, and a digital G with a real RF and Canon style USM AF lenses would fill a niche pretty nicely.

[andrew robertson]

Oops...<div></div>

[andy_piper2]

Actually, Wikipedia gives nods to both Brad's and my sources for "drinking the Koolaid" -

"closely associated with Jonestown", and also with the Merry Pranksters', via the test of

Tom Wolfe's "The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test".

 

In the Pranksters sense of joining the club of the hip by drinking the LSD-laced - uh,

flavored, colored water - well, sure! Buying into the M8 is absolute proof one is hip, cool,

and with it.

 

8^)

 

Unfortunately that has be usurped by the more perjorative use meaning "buying in to the

(corporate) cult(ure)'s values" - by among others, Enron execs when they got someone new

to participate in their phony deals.

 

A dangerous phrase used out of context.

 

Hey - I wish there were digital Contax Gs, digital Konica (oops, I mean Sony) Hexar RFs, a

digital Ikon, and even a resurgence of the R-D1(s). I like rangefinders, and the more the

merrier (since Merry is the theme for the day). Bring 'em on!

[don_e]

"Brad is right, but the etymology of the phrase does come from Jonestown.

 

No, it comes from the Merry Pranksters." -- Brad

 

As a meme, it comes from Jonestown. "Can you pass the acid test?" comes from the Pranksters, and nobody but old hippies recollect it or the koolaid it refers to.

 

But I wonder if Jim Jones got the idea from Kesey?

 

--

 

Don E

[al_gorman]

No, the IR magenta issue can be controlled.

 

Leica got it wrong. Only Leica Cult members would except having to put a filter on a lens to ensure the colors are correct. Indeed if they were honest they would except anything providing the name 'Leica' was on the box.

 

The Epson RD is a proven product with no such issues.

[rgh]

I got an R-D1 last month, as a long time Leica user I find it a very fun camera to use and

very well built. Yes, it does have its issues and a few quality control problems that show up

regularly it seems, but mine has been fine with a slight vertical alinement adjustment I

decided to do myself easily in a few minutes. Image quality may not be as good as an M8

with its sensor size but for my needs it is fine and I find the analog style controls an

advantage, maybe more 'Leica-like' than the M8 in that way.

 

Make no mistake, the R-D1 does have a magenta problem too. My wife's black fleece

jacket is a shade of deep purple, which I'm going to have to get used to this winter :-)

Otherwise a great camera and at 1/3 of the M8 price for a digital 'M'. Can't say its 'better'

than an M8, that's not the issue in my thinking, just a good camera at a reasonable price.

 

I'm sure the M8 can make people that bought it happy. If it wasn't for all the digital M talk

I wouldn't have thought of an R-D1, and for the future I will always be open to a better

Leica digital so I hope it all works out.

[rj]

"The Epson RD is a proven product with no such issues."

 

"Make no mistake, the R-D1 does have a magenta problem too. My wife's black fleece jacket is a shade of deep purple, which I'm going to have to get used to this winter :-)"

 

 

So who is in denial now? Look, I will agree, there has to be more competition in the digital rangefinder/non dslr market so the price comes down and the cameras get better, but the fact is the Leica is it right now. The Leica camera can be better and time will tell if they will make a better camera, but right now for the leica shooter, your digital camera is here. Its kind of like when the Canon D30 was out, the camera was full of problems but people bought them because that was the choice then, and in time Canon came out with better designs. Rangefinder users have been stuck with one camera at a time, we need more choice.

[al_gorman]

"Make no mistake, the R-D1 does have a magenta problem too.

 

First time of heard that it had the same problem as the Leica M8. Does it mean it needs a special filter?

 

Personally i would keep well away from these RF digitals until they sort out their issues. Unless of course you just a snapper who is happy with magenta blacks providing you have a RF in your hand.

[carbon_dragon]

"5D - $2999 with rebate, M8 - $4800. 4,800/2=2,400. Therefore 2,999 <= 2,400? Interesting math. "

 

I bought my 5D about a month ago at a list of $2800 from BHPhoto, and the rebate made that at least $2500 (or if you bought a lens the double rebate made it $2200). So his math looks pretty good to me. Plus if you factor in lenses the math gets even better since even expensive Canon lenses tend to come in under the Leica brand.

 

I use Leica M2's with a modern 50 and 35 (and an older 90). When I decided to go digital, I just couldn't make myself buy a $5000 M8 when the Canon 5D was "half as much". I'm happy so far with my purchase. If I were really rich, I might have bought an M8 too, I'm sure it's a good camera. I'm not much put off by the IR filter, but it's just too much money for what you get in my opinion. I know others disagree and more power to them.