New M6TTL Metering Problem - Help!

[eric_reid]

I've shot about 10 or so rolls through my one month old M6TTL and 90% of my exposures are over by what looks like about one stop. While I haven't done any "scientific" testing, I have tried shooting in a variety of circumstances: all manners of times of day, indoors, outdoors, with and without a tripod, different subjects, pushing one or two rolls, etc., all in an effort to test my metering ability and hone in on the problem. I'm finding the exposures remarkably consistent in their over-exposure -- I don't have some that are four stops over and others one stop. It may be my technique (I'm far from a pro), however, before purchasing my new M6, I rented one for a few days, shot about 10 rolls with it, and had no similar exposure problems (other than a few simple mis-exposures that I clearly screwed up). In order to be consistent, I've been using all Delta 400 BW neg. film. That's the background, here's the question:

 

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1. From the brief description, is it likely the camera or my technique? Camera's new from a local authorized dealer, USA, etc. and of course I can take it in to be checked if need be.

 

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2. Could it be the film? Does Delta 400 (set at ASA400 on the M6)have any tendency to over-expose?

 

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3. If your recommendation is to have the camera checked, I will have to do so after a weekend's shooting at a friend's distant wedding (not the official photog. of course). Given this, what would you recommend to correct for the problem in the meantime -- simply metering normal and then closing down a stop? Or is there a better way (e.g., having the lab pull it a stop?)

 

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Thanks in advance for all your advice -- I'm a daily lurker here and your posts have taught me a lot about my new camera. ER

[Tony Rowlett]

The best test is with a gray card and slide film. Use consistent

lighting and make a series of tests using a range of shutter speeds.

But it does sound like your meter may be off.

[tony_rowlett2]

Meter on a gray card, then AFTER you meter and select an exposure,

place a white egg or two in the scene, and something that's black.

Keep the gray card in the scene, and make your exposure. With slide

film, this should tell the story. The M6 meter has always been famous

for being "spot-on." I calibrate my Gossen by my M6.

[tse_sung_wu7]

Slightly Off topic-

My meter goes off very quickly: I press the shutter release, the LEDs

light up for a second. Then they're off and I have to wait before I

can press the shutter release to get them again.

 

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Low battery?

[tony_rowlett2]

I'll bet that does mean a low battery. On my M6 bodies, a low battery

is usually indicated by the meter deltas gradually dimming.

[giles_poilu]

Through the ages photographers have gone crazy trying to match two

meters. They rarely give exactly the same data. To have your M6

meter out by a whole stop is rather odd though. If the problem

persists and is constant through varying situations the easy answer

is simply to alter your film setting - ie for Delta 400 set the rear

dial to ISO 800. And maybe to bracket your shots. Presumably you

know the problems with reflectence meters where to point the

measuring field?

 

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The favoured solution is simply to use the best meter of all - a

handheld incident meter. It is an odd thing indeed to find a pro who

would not rely on his Sekonic or at least check his in-camera reading

with one of these. I find a meterless M with a Sekonic hand held

meter the best way to work. Sorry, but as in my Vulcanite reply this

is YET another reason to prefer the older bodies.

 

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The way a Leica is used it shouldn't be necessary to meter every

shot. With the M meter you must be looking through the viewfinder

whilst twirling the speed dial or aperture ring. I believe it is

easier to inconspicously take a reading from an incident meter and

transfer this to the camera. Adjust this reading as you work - the M

is not used like other cameras!

[lutz]

Eric,<BR><BR>What makes you so sure that your negs are over*exposed* -

versus over*developed* - versus your prints are *underexposed*? You do

not mention whether you are developing or printing the negs by yourself

or have them developed/printed... Do you use a dedicated densitometer?

Do you have the Delta Pro developed in Kodak#s D 76 or Ilford's ID 11 @

the proper solution, temperature, time? Are you looking @ 1 hour lab

prints or hand made stuff?

<BR><BR>

Let's suppose the negs are duely developed and the prints are tart -

the one and only test that remains to be made to check your meter is by

metering a gray card with your M6 and compare that metering with an

incident light meter reading of the same gray card in the same light.

<BR><BR>Finally, you should have your shutter checked...<BR><BR>Thumbs

up.

[Robin Smith]

Eric

 

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I think the only real way is to tell using something with standard

processing - such as slide film. I suggest you take a roll of slides

(say Sensia 100/ or Elitechrome) using subjects in the shade

or during an overcast day and meter a mid tone. If the slides look off

then your meter might need some adjustment. To be off a half stop

either way is acceptable. Personally I only change my film speed plus

or minus a third of a stop to fine tune a slide film on all the Leicas

I own.

[eric_reid]

Thanks for everyone's fast response! A bit more info (since Lutz

asked)...

 

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1. I'm looking at the negs (not the proofs or contact sheet, which I

know is a compromise print to allow all shots to be seen), and

they're a bit thin.

 

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2. I'm using a pro lab specializing in B&W for process and print.

When I try to enlarge using one of the overexposed negs, the lab can

usually print something decent. But I don't think their expertise

makes up for my exposure problem! Also tried a different pro lab -

same problems. BTW, never had any of these problems with either lab

using same film (or Tri-X) using the rental M6 or my Contax T2.

 

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I think I'll try the grey card experiment -- if I use slide film for

its exactness in exposure, what slide film should I use? For this

weekend, I guess I'll set the ASA dial for an extra 1/2 stop and

process normal. Any other suggestions?

[wgpinc]

It may not be a meter problem at all. The faster shutter speeds may

be off enough to cause your overexposure. 1000 actually at 5-600

would cause almost a stop overexposure. Might want to have your

shutter speeds checked out. You may need a CLA to true up the

shutter speeds. Regards.

[eliot]

Eric

 

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As attested to above, there could be any number of problems wrong

with the camera (meter, shutter, Iso setting dial) or with the film,

development, or printing that could account for a one stop difference.

 

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The best way to tell if the camera METER is off is to compare meter

readings from your M6TTL with those froma properly calibrated hand

held meter, probably best metering a gray card, as others have

suggested.

 

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I have a Gossen Luna Pro, which is a very accurate meter, but other

brands should do fine. In my experience, an in camera meter like the

M6 should agree with a hand held reflected light meter within half a

stop or less. I have several Leicameters that couple to the shutter

of older M cameras. These meters agree with the Gossen meter to

within half a stop.

 

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But the only way to know whether there is a problem with the M6TTL

meter per se, is to test it against another meter that you know

meters correctly.

[jackflesher]

>1. I'm looking at the negs (not the proofs or contact sheet, which I

know is a compromise print to allow all shots to be seen), and

they're a bit thin.<

 

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Pardon my ignorance, but doesn't a "thin" negative imply under-

exposure, not over-exposure as stated in your original post?

[richard_ilomaki]

eric:

 

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If you need a quick fix for the weekend, try one of the C-41

chromogenic B&W films Ilford XP2, Kodk Portra B&W or T400CN, that

have a nuch wider latitude than silver films and can be processed in

a more or less standard fashion-by a good 1 hour lab.

 

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The grey card with the (white!!)egg and a piece of balck velevet is

an excellent way to test the meter. A reading from the meter off the

grey card used for a shot with teh grey card, the egg and the black

velvet will give you the full gamut of zones.

 

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With proper film speed rating, exposure and development you should

have a mid grey for the card, JUST be able to see texture in the egg

and JUST be able to see texture in the fabric.

 

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As a quick check, you can take a reading with the M6 from a grassy

area in full sunshine in the middle of the day and it should be

either 250 or 500 at f16, tending more towards the 500, if you use

400 speed film.

Good luck.

[eric_reid]

Jack -- You're right, thanks for the catch. As I was writing, I was

comparing the negs to some that were actually thin and I wasn't

paying attention to my post! The negs in question have all been

overexposures that have insufficient detail. While we're on the

topic, I always thought as a rule of thumb that it was better to have

overexposure than underexposure. Is this right? How much

overexposure is ok on B&W negative film? (I know it ought to have a

wide latitude, but we're talking overexposure here...).

[yip2]

The ASA speed is set on a dial, which is a hit or miss thing.

Sometimes you may not have set it properly.

The only way to be sure is to attach the Leica flash on it.

The readout from the flash LCD tells you precisely.

[peter_olsson]

Hi Eric,

 

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if you are not to far North this time of the year you can check your

meter against the Sunny 16 rule if you measure against a medium grey

wall with the sun in your back, in the middle of the day should be

good. You can either turn the ASA to 100 (or 125) and check that you

get a reading of 1/125 at f/16 or, with ASA 400, a time of 1/500 and

an aperture of approximately f/11 + 2/3.

 

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The rule of thumb for exposing black&white film may be different with

a modern film such as Delta or Tmax. These films are more sensitive

to overexposure than old films such as FP4+ , HP5, Tri-x and Plus-x.

With Tri-x I like the look with a 1/3 to ½ stop overexposure (or 1

stop and pulled development) even though it is beginning to show a

lot of grain even there. With modern films overexposure is not

recommended, a slight underexposure is better - even if the negatives

look thin they can still produce high quality prints with modern

emulsions.

 

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For slide-film, you could begin with Kodak Ektachrome 100S, it seems

to deliver a true ISO 100 and could therefore give you a good hint if

something is wrong with your exposure meter.