First MF system: 6x6 or 6x7 for landscape/street?

[greg_johnston1]

Hi all,

 

I've previously used Canon film and digital cameras and I currently use an

Xpan.

 

I want to buy a MF system which can be hand held and is relatively portable

for streetscapes and landscapes. I want to make prints around 16x20" in size

to sell.

 

I had the Mamiya 7II in mind. However, I want to shoot wide and as close as

possible to my subject (less than 1 metre) and I remember reading that the M7

is not for close distance shooting. Can anybody confirm this?

 

In 6x6 format, I have read positive things about the Hasselblad 503CW (and if

the Xpan lenses are anything to go by, I'd be happy with similar quality). Any

Rollei recommendations?

 

Since I purchased an Xpan I have found manual focus (rangefinder) to be much

more accurate and consistent than my Canon AF equipment. So, a manual focusing

system would suit me.

 

I have also read an old SL66 Rollei is a great (though old) camera.

 

I would be scanning images on a Nikon 9000.

 

Any recommendations would be appreciated.

 

Thanks.

[.th]

if you're going to be printing 16x20, i don't see any reason to shoot on a square format, having to crop it later.

<br><br>

 

with the m7, at least with the 80mm (the only one i've got - but i think it applies to all the lenses), you're limited to one meter. however, for everything further away than that, you'd have to go up in format to get anything "better". but - as i'm sure you know, working with an xpan - as with all rf cameras, close up work is not its strenght.

<br><br>

 

others have to recommend specific slr systems, and i'm sure they will. but i think one can safely say, you can make fine photos with all of them.. slr or rf for that matter.

<br><br>

 

best of luck - th

[Jochen_S]

I'd suggest to check the Pentax 67 too, although I don't know much about it's lens line. - BTW: according to my experience most MF SLRs like the 67 or old 'blads don't allow really close focusing as known from average 35mm SLRs without extra hassle like extension tubes and so on. So if you can carry the extra weight of a camera with build in bellows. - I like my Mamiya TLRs, but the lens line probably won't suit you.

 

Have you thought about a Technika 23? It might not be the worst to be used handheld and offers some movements for the case you find somebody willing to carry your tripod.

[greg_johnston1]

...sorry..I didn't mean to confuse people when I said I would print at 16x20". If I purchased a 6x6 I would want to print at the equivalent size...ie around 20x20"..

[marek_fogiel]

Greg,

 

I think that for portability and wide shooting the RF cameras should be the way, for

landscape it depends if you only want to use normal-wide lenses or something longer.

 

For a portable all-round system nothing beats the Hasselblad in my opinion, but it is not

the best camera to use for street shooting at close distance - UNLESS - you also buy a

SWC and use it with a fast film and zone focusing, Leica style work.

 

Check on how close you can focus with the Mamiya 7 and 43 mm, it is a similar FOV

solution, similar lens design, and probably even better quality.

 

You might also check if you can be satisfied quality wise with a 6x4.5 format, where you

have much lighter and faster cameras like Contax or Mamiya or Pentax, with autofocus

and 35 mm lenses at the short end.

[friedemann_pistorius]

I own and use two 6x6 cameras, so I can't speak for a 6x7 system.

<p/>I have a Bronica SQ-Ai with 40, 80, 150, 250 lenses plus a 1.4x tele-converter (adds 56, 116, 210 and 350mm to the range) and a Mamiya 6 MF (lenses 50, 75, 150). I use the Bronica on a tripod (mainly landscapes and some close-ups), whereas the Mamiya gets extensive use on longer hiking trips or when carrying capacity is limited. I have a Speed Grip for the Bronica, which makes handheld shooting much easier, but I use it very seldom and will probably sell it.

<p/>To me, the only advantage of the Bronica (or any SLR) over the Mamiya is the better close-up capability (even better with a dedicated macro lens) and the use of lenses wider than 50 and longer than 150mm.

<p/>I went into LF about 10 years ago. Since that time the Bronica gets less and less use (I might even end up selling the complete Bronica outfit or keep it for my children - one of four might be interested in spite of the digital pressure...), while the Mamiya is used as often as before.

<p/>If I were forced to decide between the two, I would NEVER ever sell the Mamiya. It's a perfect lightweight MF outfit, the lenses are simply fantastic and incredibly sharp. Though the Bronica lenses are good, sharp and contrasty too, the Mamiya lenses beat them all. Some say the Mamiya lenses are <i>at least</i> of equal quality than the Zeiss lenses for Hasselblad or Rollei. Even a cropped image can be blown up to 16x20" with tremendous detail. Well, if you're a desperate sharpness fanatic :) or need larger prints, you should consider formats larger than 6x6.

 

<p/>I you want a solid, portable, lightweight, handheld MF camera with stellar lenses and if you can live without real close-up, I'd strongly suggest the Mamiya.

[minhnguyen9113]

A Koni Omega is a little bit heavy but very good price and can go down to 3.5 feet with standard 90mm lens is about $100.00 on Ebay. You can get 60mm wide angle and 135mm, 180mm tele very good price now. I have pictures developped to 20x24 with very clear details.

[mike_earussi1]

Since you're use to composing in a rectangular format it might be difficult to compose in a square one. You might try renting the equiptment first before buying it. For street use I would recommend the Pentax 645 for close-up along with the M7II for your street and landscape type work. Since both are light weight and compact they should be no more difficult to carry around than one heavy system. You could use either the Pentax 67 or the Koni-Omega but they are heavy systems, and though both systems have good optics they are not as good as the M7II.

[victor4]

I have and have used the hasselblad 50, 80, 120 and 180 on the street(or any doumentary style work). The 50 and 180 are my favorites. The whole blad system is a bit cumbersome for street shooting. Hard to focus especially in low light. Noisy, and slow focusing.

 

I recently bought a Mamiya 7ii with a 43 and a 65 for street work. The Mamiya is much more usable for street work than the blad by far. It is very quiet. The blad attracts attention just from the sound, especially when working up close to the subject. Makes it more difficult to get a number of shots off without attracting attention.

 

The Mamiya 43, 50, 65 and 80 all have a minimum focusing distance of 1 meter. I have no problem with this distance as a minimum with either the 43 or the 60.

 

The Mamiya is easy and very quick to focus, the blad has to be zone focused before attempting the shot. In poor light the Mamiya wins hands down on this alone.

 

The Mamiya lenses are excellent! (as are the blads)

 

I carry the blad and the 180 along with the Mamiya 43 and 65. The Mamiya has no usable long lens so I use the blad. I put it all in a Lowepro mini-trecker and sling it over one shoulder.

 

When needing a square it is easy to crop down to the Blad size. When needing a 16x20 crop the blad cannot hold its own against the larger real estate of the Mamiya.

 

Unfortunately my health does not allow for much shooting anymore and when I do go out my wife usually carries the gear. She's just a wee bit of a thing and straps the pack on and is able to manage the weight without difficulty. This pack also has a tripod carrier but unless you are using a very light tripod I find it way too much to carry.

 

Hope this helps a bit.

[victor4]

I forgot to add the one downside of the 43 lens. For viewing it requires an extra viewfinder. You use the normal rangefinder for focusing. I have used the rangefinder for viewing with the 43 but don't yet feel I know where the limits are yet. The widest the rangfinder viewer shows is 65. One has to guess where the ends of the frame will be for use with the 50 or the 43. Since almost all my street work uses the 65 it has not been a problem except on rare occasion.

 

I've been considering adding a 2nd Mamiya body, would be a bit quicker than switching lenses. But it would also add more weight to the whole kit.

 

I believe the blad swc also requires a viewfinder but the swc can only be zone focused, unless you take off the back and attach a viewfinder or ground glass for each and every shot.

 

Good Luck, vic...

[al_kaplan1]

The Koni Omega is a fast handling camera ideal for street work. This stuff is going cheap now! For landscapes in MF on a tripod there's the little 6x9cm Galvin view camera with a bellows for easy close-ups, and full movements front and rear. The ground glass panel on the back is oddly articulated so you can as easily slide a Graflex style roll holder under it as a sheet film holder. There are lots of great lenses out there on the used market, from the 47mm Super Angulon to 180mm teles (and beyond) that can be mounted on it. At today's prices you could likely have both systems for under $1,000.

[erlend sæteren]

I am in love with my Mamiya 7 with 50mm, got it in november after years with the Mamiya

645 pro. When I carry the 7 with 50 and 80,+the 645 with A120 Macro . I can do almost

everything with the quality I like. By the way Mamiya 7and 50mm gives (with 120 film)

similar angel of wiev as the x-pan with 45, but 10% larger(and some extra on bottom and

top)

I think Mamiya 7 is the best (lightweight/highresolution/easy operation), but not alone- an

SLR with Macrolens is a nice supplement

[david_henderson]

I have a Mamiya 7ii and a Bronica which gets used for probably 80% of my photographs. I'm really pleased I've got the rangefinder, but there a couple of things you need to keep in the back of your mind. First, you can't see depth of field at all. So in those near/far landcsape compositions you'll be down to using the lens barrel markings ( which are very optimistic given my -and others- perceptions of acceptably sharp btw). For close work , with dof in inches you'll have no useful guide at all unless you measure and use tables. You'll have no access to macro lenses. Working quickly on the street its going to be hard to see whats going to be acceptably sharp and what isn't- and whilst zillions of great street shots have been taken with 35mm rangefinders bear in mind that the depth of field an equivalent 35mm lens offers tends to be markedly greater depending on what COC you use, and you do say you're going to make quite large prints for sale.

 

There are other control issues too. Some of them - such as lack of precision in framing- will matter leaa as you're scanning rather than projecting. Others are not so benign, and for your landscape work the positioning of nd grads with the Mamiya is not easy. Indeed I'll put it stronger that that since after six years with the camera I haven't solved that issue and have resorted to screw in grads with the grad line alwayd in the centre. But there is no doubt that I can control contrast and exposure far more precisely with a SLR.

 

 

Summarising, a rangefinder will no doubt get you shots that an slr won't. Unfortunately the reverse is true also and there are shots I make every day with a slr that you couldn't contemplate with a rangefinder. Your question asks that an impossible conundrum is resolved - the fact that to do all you want, you need two systems matching each with the sort of opportunity that uses its strengths and avoids its weaknesses. I rarely actually carry both, though I may well have both in my car/at my hotel. If you are going with one system then you're going to have to prioritise your requirements.

[frank_skomial]

The 6x7 size Pentax is good. Asahi and later Pentax lenses are very good.

 

The Pentax 6x7 once was advertised as a 35 mm SLR for tall people. The camera is heavy but lighter than other 6x7 SLR. Other 6x7 non SLR cameras are lighter but do not provide lens selection.

 

16 x 20" or larger sizes prints from any Pentax/Assahi 6x7 lens are very easy to do and come out great from well exposed frames.

 

With massive flood of digitals, Pentax 6x7 used prices are getting low. Even new prices were always reasonable for the Pentax 6x7.

 

Not recommended for all day walking trip, unless you have a mule or a bike.

 

Shooting "streetscapes and lanscapes" and you want to shoot at less than 1 "metre" ? - are you real ?

 

E.g. Pentax 90/2.8 LF lens is a bit wider than normal 105mm lens, is excellent quality and focuses down to about 0.8 m. With the 75mm or 55 mm lenses you can focus even closer.

[stuart_richardson]

The Mamiya 7II is a great camera for general work like landscapes and street stuff. That

said, the close focus on both the 80mm lens and the 43mm lens is 1m. But ask yourself,

do you absolutely need to be inside 1m? 1 meter is pretty close...particularly for street

work. The Hasselblad lenses don't focus closer than 1m without an extension tube

either...another thing, the Hasselblad lenses for the Xpan are made by Fuji, so the

signature is a bit different than those for the V series. I think they are closer to the Mamiya

lenses, but that is just me. I have an Xpan, a Mamiya 7II and a Hasselblad so I have had the

chance to compare them all.

<P>The Mamiya 7II has the added bonus that it is extremely quiet...even quieter than a

Leica. The 43mm lens is extremely good, and despite the external viewfinder it is easy to

use. The other lenses are also top-notch. Their only disadvantage is close focus and lens

speed. The fastest are f/4. In general though, it all boils down to personal preference. You

can do almost any photographic task with any given camera, it just comes down to what

you like to use. Both 6x6 and 6x7 should be large enough to make superb 16x20's as long

as you have good technique. If you like rangefinders, I would say go for the Mamiya 7. It

has some of the best optics in medium format, particularly on the wide end, it is

comparatively small and light, it is quiet, and the lack of mirror slap and good ergonomics

mean that you can handhold it at slow shutter speeds. If you must focus inside 1m, you

are using 6x7 so you have a lot of room to crop. <P><img src="http://

www.stuartrichardson.com/10-11-graffiti.jpg"><P>Mamiya 7II, 80mm <P><img

src="http://www.stuartrichardson.com/hearse-figure.jpg"><P>Rollei 6008AF, 180mm

<P><img src="http://www.stuartrichardson.com/ghost-town3.jpg"><P>Hasselblad

500c/m 80mm <P>It is not the camera as much as it is having it with you and pointing it

at the right

thing.

[wayne_crider4]

I like the suggestion of a Mamiya 6. They are very well thought of and seem to hold their prices pretty well. Of course repairs might be a concern depending on shops that have parts. As a second and third suggestion and if it would come down to finances, on the cheap end I might pick a Pentax 645 or Mamiya Pro ttl since extra lenses are reasonable. On the higher end I'd lean more to a Rollei Pro or "I" with internal metering and a 50mm over a Hassy having owned both. I find the Rollie to be a better street shooter. What it really comes down to is what will feel right in your hands. Don't make the mistake of buying till you find the right one, it's just a waste of money that you'll never recover. You'd spend less flying to NY and staying overnight to check out everything and then deciding.

[db1]

I own an Xpan and a Hasselblad 503. The compliment each other incredibly well. I am about to head off on a west Texas road trip and will be bring both cameras.

 

My Pentax 67 and my 4x5 will be staying home.

[machts gut]

Hello Greg,

you got the most important infos already. Just my 2c: the SL66 is heavy and only usable with a tripod. The same can be said about most 6x7 SLR's. A Hasselblad or a Bronica SQ can be used handhold, of course with a tripod you gain in sharpness, but I personally never use tripods, so a handhold-system is important for me.

One big question is, if you like the square of 6x6? I love it, but not everyone does. Also I experienced that my style changes from 35mm to 6x6. I hardly ever mis a wide-angle with my Bronica.

I would suggest to buy a TLR (Rolleiflex, Yashicamat, Minolta,...) and check if you like MF and the square.

 

Tell us about your experiences.

 

Stefan

[greg_johnston1]

Great responses to this post.

 

I'm veering towards the Hasselblad 503Cw. It seems more versatile and can be found on ebay. I'll have to do some more reading though on prism finders, serial no's of bodies and lenses to make sure I don't get ripped off.

 

Thanks for all your comments. Very helpful indeed.

 

Cheers.

[neilambrose]

<p>I use a Hasselblad for landscapes and a Leica for the street. It's the only combination I

find that works for me. I also own an Xpan, and have had some success with it as a street

camera, but its max aperture of f4 lets it down. All of my street shots are taken handheld,

many of them at night, and I find I'm often shooting at f2 or 1.4 - even with 3200 film - so

the Xpan is generally a non-starter.</p>

 

 

<p>I think a lot depends on how you want to do street photography. If you're shooting

from a tripod and you don't mind people noticing you then any camera is fine -- and

indeed either a Mamiya 7 or Hasselblad 5xx will be perfectly workable. But if you're doing

something more candid - e.g. shooting on the subway, or in restaurants or bars - then

anything larger than a small 35mm-type system (or digital point-and-shoot) will be

difficult to get away with. And since the average MF system has few lenses wider than f4

they're generally only workable in good light, or with a tripod - so definitely not that

useful.</p>

 

<p>I've always believed in the right tools for the job. IMHO a medium-format system is

not the best tool for candid photography. Equally, a Leica is not the best tool for

landscapes. For that reason I own both.</p>

[harvey_edelstein1]

Some of the best landscapes I have seen are in Jim Zuckermans books shot by him with Mamiya RZ-67. I also think the Pentax 67 great. These cameras will let you frame better than rangefinders which have less than accurate framing. If however the weight of the whole system is an important factor the Pentax 645 with the 35mm lens would be good enough for 16x20 prints using fine grain film.

[wayne_crider4]

Neils post hits it on the head for me and is something I almost mentioned in my previous post. Great street (candid) shooters and landscape cameras are usually not the same. Whereas a Hassy is fine for portrait or landscape work, or when on a tripod, they don't translate well for me at least into a good candid street camera. That big slapping noisey mirror and slow lenses are not the best option in my opinion and it's hard for me to tell dof at wasitlevel. Raise it to our eye and your practically shooting a canon at some by the looks you get. I prefer to go un-noticed and quick.

[paul_wilson2]

You have some seemingly conflicting requirements. To my mind, landscape doesn't really = close focusing (well, not that close) or handholding.

 

Anyway, the Mamiya 7 is probably one of the easiest cameras to handhold ever made.

[DELETE THIS ACCOUNT]

<p><em>I want to buy a MF system which can be hand held and is relatively portable for streetscapes and landscapes. I want to make prints around 16x20" in size to sell.</em></p>

 

Actually Greg's requirements might not be conflicting, if by "streetscapes" as he may well mean "urban landscapes" rather than "street" photography. Assuming that, he's got a great deal of choice randing from rangefinders to SLRs but as has been noted, close focussing and more accurate pre-exposure detection of real depth of field might suggest leaning toward the SLR route.

 

And if that is indeed the case then I'd like to add that the Rolleiflex 6000 series (6008i or newer such as the 6008AF shot above from Stuart Richardson) is a very modern and productive system - fully electronic, spot, spot average, matrix metering, a wide range of lenses from both Zeiss and Schneider. At least you won't have to carry a meter with you, too. Its surprisingly well balanced and easy to hand hold when required, even with the monster-heavy 1.5Kg 180mm lens on the front.

 

Incidentally, that lens/camera combo will certainly get people coming up to you asking what you are doing. I'm doing some documentary photography in my city right now and people keep asking me if I'm shooting a movie.

 

Downsides: depending on where you live in the world, might be far less accessible in the used market.

 

If I was buying today, I might lust after one of these Rollei machines but quite possibly common sense would prevail and I'd buy whatever system met my requirements AND showed up more frequently on Craigslist. I've seen some silly-stupid low prices lately.

[DELETE THIS ACCOUNT]

Incidentally, I'm also hoping to find a decent, relatively well priced, Mamiya 6/7/7ii rangefinder (tending to think 6 would be best) for "street" work as opposed to "street landscapes", and to have with me all the time.