I'm deeply shocked...

[michael_kastner]

Hmmm, Lutz, definitely a good question. This is the 100th answer here,

give me another 2000 years and maybe I'll come up with a good comment

to your last contribution.

[david_smith12]

Lutz,

 

<p>

 

There is not a civilized society on earth that hasn't

already "banned" and made illegal the hijacking of innocents on

airplanes, crashing them into innocent people in buildings, and

committing mass murder. It is against all laws everywhere. I'm not

sure what other legal and political remedies remain.

 

<p>

 

A "Marshall Plan" for the middle east is a terrific idea. The main

problem is the corrupt and despotic leadership in many of these

countries. Getting the goods to the people in need is very difficult

in such militaristic regimes. Many of these countries are fabulously

wealthy already. They "won't" allow political opposition and would

see an aid package to their people as subservsive to their

governments.

 

<p>

 

Finally, those international naysayers about the patience and

temperance of the USA and it's allies should acknowledge the

restraint already shown. Israel would have already used massive

force.

 

<p>

 

As has been pointed out above, people from all over the world were

murdered. I hope the large casualty count doesn't numb use to the

reality that every person killed was a father, son, mother, daughter.

The war to be waged is on those responsible, and those who aid and

abet them. The media in the USA has overstated nature of the enemy.

But remember, their job is to sell ad's, not necessarily present all

sides of the "truth."

[samir]

Bombing afghanistan now is useless as there is nothing left to be

bombed: The Soviets did a good job in the past. Bombing the training

camps of Bin Laden has already been done by the US...and it was easy

as the US knew exactly where they were, because they were build by

the CIA. A ground war from Pakistan is unlikely as it would

destabilize Pakistan and weakened its border with India...and you

could expect troubles, to say the least, in Kasmir. And do not forget

that Pakistan and India are nuclear power! The only wise military

solution would be to precisely locate Bin Laden, send a limited

number of highly trained soldiers to capture him and leave

Afghanistan immediately...but that is not likely this will happen

that way. So the retrained of the US shows that the options are

limited, that there are so far no evidence that Bin Laden is guilty,

and even less evidence that a government is behind the attacks. So

Lutz proposal make plenty of sense: help the people overcome their

despair, their sense of no-future, and their feeling they have

nothing to lose. We should have no illusion, responding to violence

by violence will lead to more violence. Ariel Sharon wanted security

before peace ... he got none of them.

[richie chishty]

My list of missing (see above) is of course incomplete. My apologies

to citizens of countries accidentally omitted from that report.

Recent news reports now indicate citizens of at least 62 countries

present in the list of 5,500+ missing persons. This is a tragedy for

the entire world. Like many others, I too am heartened by the mostly

moderate tone of the postings on this list. There is no reason why

we should not all be able to live together in peace as citizens of

Planet Earth. Amen!.......

[roberto_watson_garc_a]

Amen, Amen Amen.

[donald_a.wansor]

Lieut. Ronald Kerwin NYFD Squad 288 is among the missing

firefighters. Kerwin is also the Chief of the Levittown Volunteer

Fire Department on Long Island. Please pray for his safe return. As

of Sept.18, they have found signs of life in the rubble and hopefully

more people will be found alive. Please pray for a miracle.

[lutz]

In case you want to sign a <A HREF="http://www.9-11peace.org/

petition.php3">petition for peace</A> - I just did.

[tim_gee]

Thanks Lutz, so did I.

"give peace a chance"

[michael_kastner]

Me too. Thanks again for everything you have managed to do, Lutz.

[roberto_watson_garc_a]

Well done Lutz! thank´z!

[victor_randin]

I have done it too. Thanks, Lutz!

[peter_olsson]

I signed too, thanks for the link.

 

<p>

 

Now to some rather amazing news. The scenes with celebrating

Palestinians were discussed above. Now the German magazine Stern have

found out that the pictures were fabricated by a news team. Well, you

may ask, was this an Israelic news team? No, it was a Palestinian

news team! The Palestinian news team (who must have been complete

idiots in this case) for some reason decided to fabricate news of

celebrating Palestinians. So they handed out candy ("Kanafe") to

people (kids, a woman who had walked 11 km to sell grapes, and

others) and asked them to show signs of celebration. The journalist

at Stern magazine was able to track down the woman in her rural

village and asked her what she was celebrating in front of the

camera. The answer: "I celebrated that I had been given Kanafe". She

did at the time not know of the terror in USA.

 

<p>

 

The question now is, why did a Palestinian news team feel that it was

a good idea to fabricate something like this (and draw Arafats rage

upon themselves and the worlds astonished eyes on the Palestinian

people)? The damage they did to their own people is huge, the images

will remain in our minds for generations.

[lutz]

Thanks for the insight provided, Peter! I had been wondering all the

time why the cheerful "Palestinian" reaction that has been reproposed

by television over and over again (re-echoing in the print media!)

consisted of so little footage of just a handful of children. A

dreadful lesson in the demagogic use and abuse of images. History

teaches us that more than once wars were built upon lies and

propaganda.

[roberto_watson_garc_a]

First news I have of this fake; I just can´t belive this could

happend, at the same time it is such a surprise.

 

<p>

 

One of the most shocking imagen of that day was an hospital like

hall, with a big tv screen showing this images of people celebrating

and beside this beds with injured people; and this in the news on

CNN, enough reasons to demand a war and the strongest revange.

 

<p>

 

>History teaches us than more than once wars were build upon lies and

propaganda< on this I can only agree with you Lutz.

 

<p>

 

Again what is the cost of a healthy economy, cultural diferences or

economical similitudes*, this can explains me why here at a leica

forum, where discusions are based on a basic system and the personal

posibilities of each one on this small universe, makes us free into a

media. Well hope I can explain my thougths.

 

<p>

 

*not sure if an english word or only spanish.

[roberto_watson_garc_a]

First line should read >at the same time it is NOT such a surprise<

[luther_berry]

"Similitudes" is indeed an English word. Have misplaced my Spanish

dictionary and do not know if it is also a Spanish word. In English,

it means "image, likeness, counterpart, etc.". It is an appropriate

word for a Leica photographer to use. I think we, as photographers,

share many common similitudes, no matter that we may live in

different parts of the world. LB

[samir]

Regarding the footage of palestinian joy, I heard that CNN used 1991

footage. See

http://www.chicago.indymedia.org/front.php3?

article_id=4395&group=webcast.

 

<p>

 

Less credible is a story in a newspaper in Finland that Israeli

secret serive may have been involved in the attacks. I do not believe

that but if we have some friends from Finland, they can tell us more

about this newspaper. The link is :

http://www.vaikuttava.net/article.php?sid=1112.

I signed the petition. Thanks Lutz.

[paul_chefurka]

The footage of the Palestinian celebration appears to be genuine.

The rumour that it was a hoax is a hoax itself...

 

<p>

 

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa091101aa.htm

[lutz]

Angelique,

<BR><BR>

Thanks for keeping this thread alive. In my Swiss newspaper I read

about the recent edition of The New Yorker, said to be

most interesting as it publishes Magnum photos of the desaster and

aftermath along with articles by American writers

and intellectuals. Although the photos are critizied as being too

beautiful for the occasion I would love to judge by myself.

(This could even start a most interesting thread on the beauty of

horror in news photography...) Since it seems to be most

difficult to get hold of a copy here, could you try to get and save one

for me? I would gladly cover the expense and

shipment.

[samir]

Lutz: Sure. I will get a copy for you. On top, there is a great

article by Susan Sontag that was first published in Le Monde. Here is

the French text for those familiar with :

 

<p>

 

� MIS A JOUR LE 17.09.01 | 18h23

POINT DE VUE

Regardons la réalité en face, par Susan Sontag

Pour une Américaine et New-Yorkaise épouvantée et triste, l'Amérique

n'a jamais semblé être plus éloignée de la reconnaissance de la

réalité qu'en face de la monstrueuse dose de réalité du mardi 11

septembre.

 

<p>

 

Le fossé qui sépare ce qui s'est passé et ce qu'on doit en

comprendre, d'une part, et la véritable duperie et les radotages

satisfaits colportés par pratiquement tous les personnages de la vie

publique américaine et les commentateurs de télévision, d'autre part,

cette séparation est stupéfiante et déprimante.

 

<p>

 

Les voix autorisées à suivre les événements semblent s'être associées

dans une campagne destinée à infantiliser le public. Qui a reconnu

qu'il ne s'agissait pas d'une "lâche" agression contre

la "civilisation" ou la "liberté", ou l'"humanité", ou encore

le "monde libre", mais d'une agression contre les Etats-Unis, la

superpuissance mondiale autoproclamée, une agression qui est la

conséquence de certaines actions et de certains intérêts américains ?

Combien d'Américains sont au courant de la poursuite des bombarde-

ments américains en Irak ? Et puisque l'on emploie le

mot "lâchement", ne devrait-on pas l'appliquer à ceux qui tuent hors

du cadre des représailles, du haut du ciel, plutôt qu'à ceux qui

acceptent de mourir pour en tuer d'autres ?

 

<p>

 

Quant au courage - une vertu moralement neutre -, quoi qu'on puisse

dire de ceux qui ont perpétré le massacre de mardi, ce n'étaient pas

des lâches.

 

<p>

 

Les dirigeants américains veulent absolument nous faire croire que

tout va bien.

 

L'Amérique n'a pas peur. Notre résolution n'est pas brisée. "Ils"

seront pourchassés et punis (qui que soit ce "ils"). Nous avons un

président-robot qui nous assure que l'Amérique a toujours la tête

haute.

 

<p>

 

Tout un éventail de personnages publics, violemment opposés à la

politique menée à l'étranger par cette administration, se sent

apparemment libre de ne rien dire d'autre que : nous sommes tous unis

derrière le président Bush.

 

<p>

 

On nous a affirmé que tout allait bien ou presque, même s'il

s'agissait d'un jour qui resterait marqué par le sceau de l'infamie,

et même si l'Amérique était maintenant en guerre. Pourtant, tout ne

va pas bien. Et ce n'est pas Pearl Harbor. Il va falloir beaucoup

réfléchir, peut-être le fait-on à Washington et ailleurs, sur le

colossal échec de l'espionnage et du contre-espionnage américains,

sur les choix possibles de la politique étrangère américaine, en

particulier au Moyen-Orient, et sur ce qui constitue un programme de

défense militaire intelligent.

 

<p>

 

Mais ceux qui occupent des fonctions officielles, ceux qui y aspirent

et ceux qui en ont occupé autrefois ont décidé - avec la complicité

volontaire des principaux médias - qu'on ne demanderait pas au public

de porter une trop grande part du fardeau de la réalité. Les

platitudes satisfaites et unanimement applaudies du Congrès d'un

parti soviétique semblaient méprisables. L'unanimité de la rhétorique

moralisatrice, destinée à masquer la réalité, débitée par les

responsables américains et les médias au cours de ces derniers jours,

est indigne d'une démocratie adulte.

 

<p>

 

Les responsables américains, et ceux qui voudraient le devenir, nous

ont fait savoir qu'ils considèrent que leur tâche n'est qu'une

manipulation : donner confiance et gérer la douleur. La politique, la

politique d'une démocratie - qui entraîne des désaccords et qui

encourage la sincérité - a été remplacée par la psychothérapie.

Souffrons ensemble. Mais ne soyons pas stupides ensemble. Un peu de

conscience historique peut nous aider à comprendre ce qui s'est

exactement passé, et ce qui peut continuer à se passer.

 

<p>

 

"Notre pays est fort", ne cesse- t-on de nous répéter. Pour ma part,

cela ne me console pas vraiment. Qui peut douter que l'Amérique soit

forte ? Mais l'Amérique ne doit pas être que cela.

 

<p>

 

Susan Sontag est écrivain.Traduit de l'anglais (Etats-Unis) par Jean

Guiloineau. © Susan Sontag.

 

<p>

 

� ARTICLE PARU DANS L'EDITION DU 18.09.01

 

<p>

 

You can access it also via www.lemonde.fr. The New York Times

appreciates Susan Sontag and she publishes a lot in there. I was told

the New York Times refused to publish this article (but again is it

true, is it rumor?).

[samir]

The New Yorker : Unfortunately the New Yorker does not have a well

developed web site and you will not find their articles and pictures.

[tse_sung_wu7]

Ca fait presque 10 ans que je lis un article en francais. Et ecrit par

Susan Sontag, en plus!

<p>

If you'd like Sontag and others' thoughts in the <i>NYer</i>, click

<a href="http://www.newyorker.com/THE_TALK_OF_THE_TOWN/

CONTENT?talk_wtc">here</a>

<p>

BTW, the Mary Anne Weaver article on Bin Laden is quite interesting.

<p>

A number of alternative websites and news outlets can be found on one

of our local <a href="http://www.sfbg.com/News/altvoices.html">

alternative weeklies</a>.

<p>

I certainly appreciate the non-US perspectives!

[tony_rowlett2]

Dear Forum Participants,<p>

It was inevitable, the seeping into our forum of differing

<u>political belief</u> regarding the tragedy. Expressing sorrow,

anger, or fear because of the tragedy is one thing, but expressing

your belief in <u>what to do about it</u> is completely different and

should not be posted to this forum. I don't mean to say that one way

of thinking is correct and one is not because it's not my job to do

that. The best thing I can do is repeat the words of one person who

wrote to me privately: "This forum should be about Leica

Photography...Enough is enough." and I really have to agree with

that person.<p>

So while I do appreciate that everyone is angry, sad, nervous, and

generally quite upset at this tragedy, I really do have to insist that

we keep the topic on photography from now on.<p>

I really really really hope that you understand my position. If in

case you do not and are angry at me for this, PLEASE write to me at

rowlett@alaska.net and tell me.<p>

Thank you.

[lutz]

Tony,

<BR><BR>

I don't know if you want to allow this post to be added to the thread I

started ten days ago and which for obvious reasons appears to have been

the one with the most active (and presumably passive) resonance so far.

<BR><BR>

I, too, have been contacted privately by the same member and if it is

because of his intervention that the thread is to be closed down, I

would like to answer him before that.

<BR><BR>

Dear fellow Leicaist,

<BR><BR>

I didn't mean to offend. I didn't mean to be "crude, stupid" nor did I

mean to "dishonor the

memories" of the victims of September 11th's attack.

<BR><BR>

When I started the thread minutes after the first news trickled into my

conciousness it was because I

was deeply shocked, as I wrote. I was reaching out across the ocean to

grasp what was going on there,

in the heads and hearts of fellow forum members in the States and all

over the world. The thread

has provided some sort of relief to me. And if my English is good

enough for that to understand, it

seems that I'm not the only one in this.

<BR><BR>

But with the shock still present, the political implications have

started to become more evident and

imminent. And, as sad as it is, their prospected consequences are going

far beyond the lifes wasted

last week. The revenge declared by president Bush and more or less

heavy-heartedly supported by his

allies is likely to cost much more souls - among allied as well as

Eastern troops and civilians. And it

would be amazingly naiv to hold that the upcoming military conflict was

a purely national and not

an international matter. 09/11th's death toll listed by one of the

members clearly underlines that the

attack inevitably meant and was looking for international conflict.

<BR><BR>

I agree that the nature of the inherent concern is not a Leica matter

in the first degree, as I pointed

out from the very start. Nevertheless, I highly appreciate the highly

educated and informed level at

which this thread has been evolving, maybe due to the generally more

sophisticated knowledge and

taste of Leicaists. Nobody is forced to read on and follow it, while

everybody is free to contribute even

the most contradictory informations, beliefs, concerns. Therefore I

would regret if it was banned or

closed down now. And on this occasion I wish to thank Tony and all of

the forum members who

have taken active and passive interest so far.

<BR><BR>

BTW, contributing a link to a petition that is imploring the heads of

several national as well as

international entities not to throw bombs on civilians, risking a

nuclear war, but try to find more

precise means to eradicate terrorism is not my definition of a "far

left" political position, as you

suggest.

<BR><BR>

Call it nonsense. But I strongly believe that whoever calls him- or

herself a photographer should not

close his eyes now. Nor ears, nor mouth.

<BR><BR>

Yours,

Lutz

[tim_gee]

I respectfully submit that:

 

<p>

 

1. No body is stopping conversation about photography.

 

<p>

 

2. The freedom we cherish encourages intelligent and respectful

expression of different views and beliefs. This is what we have

seen in good measure here.

 

<p>

 

3. This thread has addressed moderately and I believe respectfully one

of the most important and tragic events in recent history in which

many of my own countrymen died and which now involves the world

community. It's sad if there are some who, for whatever reason, don't

want others to "think beyond the square" of Leica photography in this

forum at such a time.

 

<p>

 

5. I do not intend making any 'political' contributions but have been

interested in the contributions of others. I would prefer we err on

the side of allowing rather than limiting discussion.

 

<p>

 

6. In Tony Rowlett's rather well chosen and understandably emotional

words: "Leica photography means a hell of a lot more than pressing a

stupid button"