I'm deeply shocked...

[peter_olsson]

I'm still in a state of disbelief regarding the terror we all have

seen on Television for the last two days. I have a hard time to

accept that it has happened, it feels unreal. I feel sorry for all

who were killed or hurt or knew people that were.

 

<p>

 

I lived in New York state for two years and is now back in my

homecountry, Sweden. Also here people are people are shocked.

 

<p>

 

I have to say something about the media coverage. All in all I think

it has been done very well, and quite sensible. In order to

understand that this horror has actually occured we need to see the

pictures again and again. However, there have also been examples of

what I suspect is speculation in tragedy. I speak mainly of the

photage of celebrating people on the street in palestinian refugee

camps. I believe, from listening to radioreporters, that the

photographers/newsteams were actively searching for people

celebrating the terror-attack. Listening to radio the impression is

that the "celebration" was quite rare. Amongst the millions of people

who live in the middle-east the newsteams searched out the very few

that went out on the streets and did "their stunts" in front of a TV-

camera. If this indeed were as rare as the radiobroadcasts have

hinted on, it is a very sad thing to give it the coverage it has

recieved. Also, the words (as I remember them) of a palestinian

professor who was devastated about the terror attack stuck in my

mind; "The Street may have in some cases reacted with demonstrations

of happiness about this terrorist attack, but the people anywhere

should never be judged by how the Street reacts. The Street is never

subtle, the Street is not thinking, the Street is not a mirror of the

people in the country". Or something to that effect he said.

 

<p>

 

The Americans are as a whole strong people and I believe that they

will overcome this act of terrorism in time, but these are truly sad

days.

[roberto_watson_garc_a]

Yestarday declarations of US President Bush, about tuesday incidents,

saing those were not acts of terrorism, but acts of war, and the

constant spectations in the news of the monumental strong back

response of united states to this attacks, leaves my mind blank of

future solutions to our civilisation´s development of agrees acording

to our cultural diferences.

 

<p>

 

Lutz; thanks for the oportunity you gave to this forum in this

posting, we have had the oportunity to share feeling of anger and

pain as well as love and compasion.

[tony_rowlett2]

I can't believe the one guy on the LUG who pleaded with the list to

stop the "terrorism thread!" How impersonal and clinical can one be.

The world is shocked, and the Leica Forum has open arms for

discussion. Leica Photography means a hell of a lot more than

pressing a stupid button.

[albert_smith]

Tony,

 

<p>

 

Again I want to say how happy I am to have found this site a year and

a half ago. This single thread, with messages from all over the

world, from people of many different religions is the most civil and

cathartic that I have seen. The Leica Customer forum in contrast is

being used as a sounding board for radical thinkers, pointing blame

and using contrived logic to show why the attacks were warranted. I

shall delete that site from my "favorites" list.

 

<p>

 

To everyone here: Thank you all for the adult, level headed dialog.

Even when we disagree, it is in a civil manner. We are not sheep, we

have our own minds. A closed mind is like a full cup... it is

useless because you can't put anything else in it. As I read through

this thread, (and the many others about cameras), I will keep an open

mind and hopefully learn something.

[andy_piper2]

Another heart-felt thanks to all of those who sent condolences to us

Yanks.

 

<p>

 

But don't grieve just for us. Among the dead and missing (WTC and

airliners both) 100+ British, 100 +/- Japanese, 50-100 Canadian, 50

Bangladeshi, 90+ Aussie, 20+ Korean, 11 Mexican, 6 Colombian, 2 Swiss,

8 Italian, 3 Lebanese, 2 El Salvadoran, and an untold number of

others. 5 entire Chinese firms from the Towers haven't checked in yet.

 

<p>

 

Whoever it was may have thought they were attacking a symbol of the

U.S. But it was the World they killed.

[jeff_stuart]

I was unable to log on till now. I wanted to add something while it

is still daytime in Europe, but nuts, I missed it. Over the last few

days I have found it more and more difficult to turn on the TV, those

images, those planes, over and over now they penetrate and explode

right inside my head.

 

<p>

 

But late last night I turned on the TV anyway, and saw the amazing

sight of the changing of the guard at Buckingham Palace, the band

playing our anthem, The Star Spangled Banner. It took me by surprize,

I recognized the setting, but not the melody right away, though I've

heard it thousands of times.

 

<p>

 

The ceremony, the gesture and symbolism were sublime, reassuring,

perfect. Thank you.

 

<p>

 

We should do more of this. We should play each others' anthems, maybe

even learn the words. We are clearly all in this together, one way or

the other.

 

<p>

 

By the way, the old song sounded wonderful, played with dignity,

weight and purpose. We have developed this unfortunate custom over

here of mangling the tune. Performers, for some reason, feel obliged

to sing out of tune, out of time, and to embellish the melody till

she comes off like a tricked out whore. Thanks for the good example.

[dan_brown4]

I want to thank all of my international friends for their kinds

words. I heard part of Tony Blair's address to Parliment and it

brought tears to my eyes. It is a small world and we must

cooperate for the better of all. Peace and God bless you all.

[street photography by dimi]

My deepest sympathies from Greece to all people and their families

affected by the attack on the United States. I wish this was the last

criminal act all over the world causing the life of innocent people.

I like this dialogue. I believe that now we learn more about the life

and the world, the people, the religions, the terrorists. I agree

with Al and I believe that in order to make better pictures or simply

to make photography we do not need only information about cameras and

lenses but also information about the people, the life and the world.

[joe_buechler]

I haven't checked this forum for a few days. I am shocked and saddened

by the events of this week, but I'm almost equally shocked and

saddened by the hate and bigotry and bellicose reactions that I've

seen over the last few days in other places on the web. I feel so much

better having read this thread.

 

<p>

 

THANK YOU TONY for the Leica forum!

 

<p>

 

Joe

[hoyin_lee1]

I was doing some development work for UNESCO in a remote part of the

northern Philippines when I heard the news. We rushed to the local

mayor's office and crowded around a TV watching the CNN and BBC.

Quoting Yasir Arafat's words, it was unbelievable; we couldn't

believe what we saw on TV. My colleagues and I, controlling our

anger and disbelief, reached for our cellphones and frantically

called people who had friends and relatives working in New York to

see if they were all right (thank God they were). One local Filipino

guy was supposed to report to work on the fateful day in the

restaurant on the top floor of the World Trade Centre, but he got a

call from his colleagues two days earlier telling him to stay put for

a couple of days as the restaurant's renovation wasn't ready. That

poor guy was so shocked by the news (with implications on the lives

of his friends and colleagues) that he wasn't sure he could return to

New York any more. Watching the newsclips of the unfolding disaster

brought out the extremes of emotions in me--I found myself quietly

praying for the innocent victims even though I wasn't a religious

person, and I found myself cursing the people responsible even though

I'm not a hateful person. My consolation is that the world has

seemed to stand united against the terrorist bastards responsible,

and they are not going to get away with what they have done.

[nesrani]

The problem with getting back at the "terrorist bastards" is that

there are only two weapons against terror: prosperity and justice for

the oppressed on the one hand, and terror on the other. Unfortunately

the west's response seems to be to choose the latter. The war against

terrorism cannot be won. Terrorism is the weapon of the disposessed

and does not present conventional military targets. I'm afraid that

the US response to this atrocity will be no more than a string of

similar atrocities, which will only raise the stakes. Good business

for arms manufacturers and no doubt the markets will rally briefly

before the real cost of this conflict becomes apparent.

 

<p>

 

This event is a historical opportunity for the west to review its

interventionist and anti-people policies of the last five decades, to

realise that their (our) actions have consequences. In the heat of

the moment, the opportunity will be missed and we will enter a new

era of global conflict.

 

<p>

 

I'm not optimistic.

[msitaraman]

With very close relatives who were far too close for comfort to the

horror, I am not sure I agree, Rob, if you are talking about the

terrorists who planned the plane crashes (aside from the suicides).

Only violence against them might prevent them from taking life again.

 

<p>

 

But I do agree with the general proposition.

 

<p>

 

On the web, the playwright August Wilson and a playwright have a

conversation.

 

<p>

 

I paraphrase heavily, and shall provide a link when I find it...

 

<p>

 

The critic says-of the terrorists and the societies they are from-

that "now we are forced to live in their dream".

 

<p>

 

Wilson nails it on the head when he replies "no, it is that are being

forced to live in our dream", a dream which leaves them no room to

live in their own dream.

 

<p>

 

At a gut level, this is very hard to argue with. And at a gut level,

no matter how great my shock at a personal level, assertions of "pure

evil", "destruction of civilization" (something that you could

equally assert about the Rwanda killings or bombings of Cambodia, as

someone else pointed out), and "madmen" do not ring true...

 

<p>

 

There were just too many terrorists, well trained, purposeful, with

families, living in America, but willing to give up their lives, for

that explanation to hold true, as it might for a Ted Kaczynski. These

are the lashings out of extreme segments of whole peoples who feel

inexorably cornered, with their civilisation coming to an end for no

good reason.

[nesrani]

Mani, no doubt violence is a necessary tool against certain people,

but that is a police matter, military intervention is not a suitable

response in such a situation, that was my point. Of course I agree

with you - I generally do ;-).

 

<p>

 

The Wilson quote is excellent, mail me the url if you find it.

[lutz]

Rob,

<BR><BR>

Thanx for your clear words. After days of trying to grasp where these

tremendous acts sprang from I can only fully agree with what you say.

There sure is a much deeper motivation to the extremists' terror than

our establishment's rethoric wants us to believe. The terroristic acts

have fully succeeded at least in one sense so far: there is plenty of

background information available these days, if you carefully select

the sources. And I rub my eyes in disbelieve - how could I, how could

the western world underestimate the menace of international terrorism

to such an extent - and, moreover, ignore the obvious reasons for it.

Religious fanatism is a mere means for rebellion to manifest itself in

the most extreme of all forms - while humiliation and despair (for as

subjective as they may be experienced) as well as exploitation are

widespread and common at its source.

<BR><BR>

The past days I have been thinking about my own state of depression and

that of people around me. All of us are living in a very privileged

world. Problems of any kind suddenly seem ridiculous compared to not

only those of the thousands' of last week's victims and their relatives

- but also compared to those of the vast majority of the global

population.

<BR><BR>

Talking photography, leave alone Leica, doesn't feel quite right for me

these days...

<BR><BR>

Just as you, Rob, I'm not optimistic, either. When I see and hear the

president of the United States I see a person with limited gifts and

limited options under pressure. Just another slave to a warlord's

rethoric and a narrow logic that doesn't permit real apprehension of

what is at stake, globally speaking. And his allies aren`t much of an

alternative - how could they possibly be.

<BR><BR>

If I was religious, I would pray now. For wisdom.

[luther_berry]

My thanks to all of the posters on this forum! I never met any of

you personally and yet I have felt a closeness to you this week.

Sharing our grief, anger, frustration, disbelief, and hope has helped

me try to deal with this unbelievable act of terrorism. I keep

waiting to hear some newsperson say "And this concludes Orson

Welles's latest thriller from Hollywood". But this is REAL, although

I still have difficulty grasping the truth of that.

Thanks again to all. I look forward to sharing better times and

happier thoughts with you. LB

[roberto_watson_garc_a]

After seeing that plane crashing against the twin towers hundreds of

times, and searching into the news hopping to find a GOOD new out of

all this, I spent this last weekend with loved ones, now reading your

last coments on this posting by our friend Lutz, and coments by Rob

and Mani; I wander how you fellows from Europe feel about it?; here

in Mexico we are so worried about the economic disaster this may

bring, and of course the war, we may feel far from this phisicaly,

but how far can any one be, I just don´t know what to think now,

every thing seems to be up to, but up to who? and up to what?

Shall I go to bed now?

and I´ve been having this strange dreams lately?

I don´t like the images that medias bring us to see this days, they

are humanly poor, but I know this is also a work of edition, not just

photographers.

well good nigth; here in Mazatlán Mexico time is 12:39 a.m. monday

17th

[lutz]

I received a mail today, <A HREF="http://www.konermann.net/

afghanistan.html">some thoughts</A> on western options from the

viewpoint of an Afghan emigrant. Read it if you care, I think it's

worthwhile.

[michael_kastner]

Lutz,

 

<p>

 

I care, and it certainly is worthwhile. Thanks.

 

<p>

 

Mike

[tim_gee2]

I appreciate the truth and pathos of that link.

 

<p>

 

It's so tempting to want clear cut answers with clear cut action -

NOW! As with most worthwhile endeavours however we know in our hearts

that it's never that simple. The contents of that link make that plain

 

<p>

 

The maturity of response demanded of the US by this aweful tragedy is

enormous (and correspondingly painful) and in my opinion will be the

difference between revenge and justice. The response of the US will

indicate whether we are condemned to repeating the mistakes of history

or transcending them.

 

<p>

 

The USA is a great nation and that greatness is now being put to the

test.

 

<p>

 

Pray for wisdom.

[richie chishty]

ARGENTINA said five of its nationals were missing.

 

<p>

 

AUSTRALIA said three of its nationals were confirmed dead. Another 69

who were in the vicinity of the World Trade Center at the time of the

attacks were unaccounted for.

 

<p>

 

BANGLADESH said at least 50 Bangladeshis were killed in the carnage

at the World Trade Center, where many worked in restaurants and

offices.

 

<p>

 

BELGIUM said 60 of its nationals present in New York at the time of

the attack, including four workers in the WTC, were still missing.

 

<p>

 

BRAZIL said 26 of its nationals were missing.

 

<p>

 

BRITAIN said nearly 100 of its citizens were confirmed dead. Prime

Minister Tony Blair said Sunday that the death toll of Britons,

probably 200 to 300, would be the highest in any attack since the end

of World War II.

 

<p>

 

CANADA said three of its nationals were confirmed dead and between 50

and 100 others were still missing.

 

<p>

 

CHINA said that three Chinese nationals died and another was missing.

A man and woman, both in their 60s, died aboard the plane that was

sent into the side of the Pentagon. A 41-year-old Chinese person was

missing.

 

<p>

 

DENMARK'S foreign ministry said around 20 of its nationals were

unaccounted for.

 

<p>

 

EGYPT said one of its nationals was confirmed dead and at least three

others were missing.

 

<p>

 

FRANCE said a small number of its nationals working in the World

Trade Center were unaccounted for. A foreign ministry spokesman said

no French dead have yet been confirmed.

 

<p>

 

GERMANY has compiled a provisional list of more than 700 nationals

missing since the attacks, but a foreign ministry spokesman said the

actual number was much lower and the list of missing persons was

rapidly shrinking by the hour.

 

<p>

 

HONG KONG said 17 people were missing, four of them working in New

York and 12 living there. One was visiting the city.

 

<p>

 

INDONESIA said one of its citizens died on one of the four hijacked

planes and another of its citizens was missing.

 

<p>

 

ITALY said 57 Italians were missing on the basis of data supplied by

its consulate in New York. Most worked in the World Trade Center or

lived in the area. The foreign ministry said 29 people with Italian

names were among the injured in hospital, but their nationality had

not been confirmed.

 

<p>

 

JAPAN said two Japanese died on the hijacked planes, and that another

22 who were in the World Trade Center were missing.

 

<p>

 

MALAYSIA said seven of its nationals working in the World Trade

Center were missing.

 

<p>

 

PAKISTAN said only one Pakistani has been confirmed dead in the

attacks but that figure is certain to rise. A government spokesman

said around 650 Pakistani nationals worked in the World Trade Center.

 

<p>

 

THE PHILIPPINES said two Filipinos were confirmed dead and 115 were

missing.

 

<p>

 

SOUTH AFRICA said at least one South African was presumed dead:

businessman Edmund Glazer, a 41-year-old immigrant to the United

States who telephoned his wife from aboard the first aircraft flown

into the World Trade Center.

 

<p>

 

The Pretoria government said it was investigating reports of eight

South Africans who may have been inside the World Trade Center, in

the areas immediately surrounding it, or aboard the flights that

destroyed the twin towers, and of a further 16 South Africans

reported to have been in the areas near the disaster sites in New

York and suburban Washington.

 

<p>

 

SPAIN said it was without news of nine of its citizens, but declined

to describe them as officially missing. Press reports said they were

seven people living in New York and two tourists.

 

<p>

 

SOUTH KOREA said 19 of its nationals were missing.

 

<p>

 

SWEDEN said one of its citizens was missing.

 

<p>

 

SWITZERLAND said four of its citizens were killed: two on board one

of the planes that smashed into the World Trade Center, and two who

were in the towers. Another two who were in the vicinity were

missing.

 

<p>

 

TURKEY said it was tracking 131 people still unaccounted for. A total

of 326 Turks had been traced alive out of 457 reported missing.

Around 500 Turks worked in the World Trade Center.

 

<p>

 

TAIWAN said nine Taiwanese were missing.......................

 

<p>

 

 

 

<p>

 

 

 

<p>

 

 

[roberto_watson_garc_a]

Dear Muhammad, here in Mexico we are counting hundreds among

travelers on the crashed planes and workers in the twin towers, we

still don´t know the exact number, and I belive we´ll never know, for

sure we are all involved in this tragedy.

 

<p>

 

Lutz; thank´s again for linking us to that letter, always fundamental

to see all the points of view, let´s hope this war goes to whom

deserve to pay for it and not inocent people, there were already a

lot of inocent people that had paid, for free.

[samir]

After the shock, after the sadness, after all these great exchanges

we had on this thread I am getting scared. As a European living in

the US, I am shocked by the lack of analyses and historical

perspectives in the US Media. I encourage all to read some very good

articles on The Economist, The Financial Times, or, for those who

know a bit of French, Le Monde. For example I have not seen a single

US Newspapers exploring the role the CIA played in financing and

training the Taliban and Bin Laden. A Belgian weekly magazine has on

its front page "Bin Laden: ex-CIA Agent". It is a crucial time to

scrutinize 20, 30 years of US Foreign policy and see how it may have

contributed to the rise of Islamic extremism. For many decades, the

US has supported non-democratic governments, first in the fight

against the Soviet Union, then to secure Oil supply, and these

governments have been known to support and harbor terrorists

organisations. A word we hear a lot is "War", "America will strike

back". America has to strike back but without a deep reflection on

its foreign policy and a change of attitude, any military action will

throw more people in the arms of terrorists organizations the like of

Bin Laden ... In the past months, the leaders of Jordan and Egypt

have sent messages to Bush to be more involved in the conflict in the

Middle East and there is a mounting radicalisation in the Streets of

Amman or Cairo. We do not want the stability of these moderate

countries to be endangered by a few who would take advantage of the

situation. These are some reflections...and I don t know what other

people here think about it, but the American responses should have

many facets (military, political, economical,...)

[nesrani]

"I wander how you fellows from Europe feel about it?"

 

<p>

 

Obviously everyone in Europe is shocked by the scale of the loss of

life. But many people see it as something that has been coming for a

long time.

 

<p>

 

Despite the opportunistic attempts to jump into the breach by the

Italians and British (who have always been America's stooges in

Europe anyway (I am a British citizen living in Italy myself)), I

think many people here are worried by the prospect of an

unaccountable, belligerent US taking unilateral action against

civilians in some of the poorest countries in the world, which can

only lead to an escalation of conflict worldwide. The US has

repeatedly shown its contempt for the UN and its readiness to resort

to violence, and this does not augur well.

 

<p>

 

I think many Europeans see the seemingly uncritical US support for

Israel as being at the root of this conflict (alongside its

interventions in nearly all the Middle Eastern "rogue" states) and

want to see a change in policy in this area.

 

<p>

 

I suspect that if you were to poll Europeans about what should be the

response to this event, they would come down more on the side of

mediation and negotiation than military intervention. But of course,

no-one believes that that is going to happen.

 

<p>

 

As for myself, I was planning to emigrate to India myself early next

year but I believe the whole region will be destabilised by the

almost certain prospect of US bombardment of Afghanistan. So the

travel plans are indefinitely postponed...

 

<p>

 

As a disclaimer, I would just say that I'm not particularly anti-

American, but as a European I'm open to both sides of the argument,

while deploring _all_ intemperate violence. It is worrying to me that

America combines its vast power with the provincialism of its policy

makers. This couldn't have happened at a worse time.

[nesrani]

Incidentally, I'm very impressed by how moderate the comment on this

list has been. It's hard to have a non-American perspective on the

internet and I think this forum is remarkable for the balance of

opinions that come up on it. It's a tribute to Tony and to all

participants.

[lutz]

Last night I had a thought - what if the US (instead of investing

billions of $ in what is likely to become a Third World War) "bombed"

Afganistan and all nations where they suspect and/or identify

terrorists' coves with food, medical supplies, humanitarian and non-

profit economical help - while still banning and prosecuting terrorism

with political and legal means. This would save millions of bucks and

souls and it would definitely eradicate the terrorism it presently

evokes and will multiply with a war. <BR><BR> Could anybody please

point out the downsides...?!