Goerz Dagor Gold Ring 81/2" F/8-45

[russmarshall]

I have an opportunity to buy this lens. Supposed to be very rare and very

good.Does anybody know anything about this lens or manufacturer? It's on a

lensboard for a 4x5 view camera. What would be a fair price? Thanks

[jon_wilson]

Are you sure it is f8? I have a Goerz Artar Red Dot 8 1/2" f9 in a compur shutter. It is very sharp and they sell around $350. If you asking about the Gold Ring f6.8, which I understand covers 8x10, I saw one on ebay recently for Big Bucks. The only one more expensive and rarer would be the Schneider Kerns lens of the same type/size. Hope this help some. Jon

[User_503771]

According to the Lens Vademecum, the Dagor was made in lots of different configurations (the actual formula didn't change much, but the marketing did). The Gold Dot, Gold Rim, and Golden Dagors seem to have all been made by American Optical Company (under license with Goerz which ceased production in the 1920s).

 

I'm not sure what models were continued by Schneider after they bought the brand. Not sure, but I think I recall that they continued production of the Dagor line for a little while maybe in the 1970s, but it could have been the 1960s.

 

There was an f/8 Am Opt Co "Super Dagor" but it was a special wide-angle Dagor and made, apparently, only in shorter focal lengths than 210 (the longest quoted is 180mm).

 

There was also an earlier f/9 Dagor at various focal lengths.

 

I suspect that you are looking at an f/6.8 210mm Dagor which has been mounted in a shutter which will only open out to f/8 for that focal length, although I suppose also that it's possible that there was an f/8 210mm Dagor somewhere along the line.

 

Can you read the lens name and spec on the rim around the element? That should answer the question in that regard.

 

Another thing to check for is whether the serial numbers on the front and back are the same.

 

If you have an opportunity to test it, do so, and try shooting wide angle on a large negative, stopped well down (it will cover more as you stop it down). You can also check for focus shift as you stop down, to ensure that the front and rear elements are spaced the correct distance.

 

I don't know what these are worth! I've seen Dagor vary in price pretty wildly over the last few years, but the later models, as this one seems to be, usually hold their value and go for quite a bit.

 

Additionally, it's a terrific lens formula that holds its own to this day. If the one you're perusing is in good shape, shoots well, and you're comfortable with the price, I'd go for it, especially if you'll be shooting black and white with it.

 

Hope this helps.

[russmarshall]

Michael you are absolutly right, it's an F/6.8 Gold Ring and also not an 8-1/2" but an 8-1/4". The serial #'s are the same front and back.Also on the lens rim is "C.P. Goerz Am. Opt. Co." So I take it then that the lens was made in the 1920s. It's also mounted in a Synchro - Compur shutter w/widest aperature marking of F/6.8

Thanks for your info in spite of my mis-info.

[scott_sharp]

The Golden Dagor sometimes called the Gold Rim Dagor dates from the mid-1950's. The front barrel on a Golden Dagor is gold anodized aluminum. The earlier Dagors had either black painted brass barrels or unpainted aluminum barrels. For the Golden Dagors you're looking at serial numbers in the 78X XXX to 8XX XXX range. The glass should be single coated with a light blue or sapphire blue coating. The the Gold Dot Dagor (the last Dagors made by Goerz) date from the mid to late 1960's. Beware that there are some Dagors that are being marketed on fleabay as Gold Rim Dagors that are not. Someone has polished the brass barrel of an earlier Dagor (sometimes removing the black paint)leaving a shining brass barrelled Dagor. Again the real Golden Dagor has a gold anodized aluminum barrel. I have several Dagors in different focal lengths and they are all excellent. You won't be disappointed. Good luck with your purchase.

[Troll]

Is it coated? If so, (and it probably is), then it was made after WW2. Can you publish the serial number and we'll know for sure. If it's what it claims to be, then the price should be somewhere between $350-$600.

[profhlynnjones]

I have a great deal of history RE: Goerz lenses. There were 4 different lenses called Goerz!

 

#2 Goerz started a company in the US which was later sold to US owners - preventing them from being owned by the USGov. under the "Alien Properties Control Act" from either of the wars. this company was owned for some years by AOC, later it had a succession of owners, each of the less comepetent the the former.

 

#1 The original Goerz was sold to Zeiss and Zeiss thought this would be great since the two companies controlled most of the medium and large format optics business and they labeled all of the lenses, Zeiss-Goerz. It didn't work, the supporters of both companies refused to buy any lenses from either of them and went ot other manufacturers and Goerz was offered for sale.

 

#3 In the late 1920's, George Drucker (I knew him very well), owner/president of Burke & James bought Goerz from Zeiss, buying all of the existing German lenses, formulae, tooling, and rights to reproduce including the appropriate names. All of these were brought to B&J in Chicago where they already had optics manufacturing there. At about the same time, George acquired the knowledge to artificially coat lenses and did so around 1928 or 1929. George financed the development of lens coating by a PhD candidate in California. All of the German lenses were coated and shuttered as needed. All of these lenses were branded as "Goerz Berlin". Over time B&J made many lenses under the name of Goerz, and had contracts or owner ship for numerous lens types and brands. Later, they bought military surplus lenses of high quality under the original names or B&J trade names. This very active and successful business was sold when George retired. A bit later, I was VP of the company and manager of the "Lens Bank".

 

#4 The #2 company (AOC et al)was sold to Schneider about (about 1972 or 1973) and the optics were re-designed and sold under the nmes of Dagor, and Blue dot Tricor among others. If I am correct, Schneider was so busy in their manufacturing that the had Kern Optical of Switzerland making them.

 

Lynn

[profhlynnjones]

I'm going to try this one more time, an old and now deceased salesman named Harry, was the sales manager for the New York Goerz, some time after it was owned by American Optical. This company was on hard times and was buying lenses on a "low bid" basis.

 

Harry got an order for 3 8" f6.8 Dagors but needed them quickly. He called the plant manager and said that he needed them, the manager said that they didn't have the lens bezels plated black yet. Harry said to go ahead and give them a coat of clear lacquer and assemble the lenses, he needed them this week. Harry said, "We'll advertize them as the New Golden Dagor"! And so life goes on interestingly, that continued until Schneider bought what was left of it.

 

I believe that all Dagors were f6.8, 65 degree angle, although Wide Angle Dagors were different. The name Dagor was constructed by combining, "Double Anastigmat by Goerz". The regular Dagors by several different manufacturers were made for about 100 years.

 

I hope I don't get timed out on this page agian

 

Lynn, again

[dan_fromm2]

Come on, Lynn, American Optical Company made (still makes, I believe) lenses for eyeglasses and, now, contact lenses, used to make fine microscopes and optics for them and never owned Goerz American OC. Goerz American OC was wholly independent. If you can direct me to a source like AOC's corporate history that says otherwise, please do so.

 

You've been telling us over and over that B&J started coating lenses in the late 1920s. That's nice, where are their coated lenses? Can you deliver any documentation but your recollections?

[profhlynnjones]

It is late on Friday but I'll try to find some advertisements showing that AOC did in fact own American Goerz at one time. I'll get to this next week.

 

Lynn

[profhlynnjones]

To Dan Fromm

 

Of course AOC was always and I believe still is a well recognized technical optics company, I was a medical photographer/cinematographer and used some of their microscopes and objectives going back to the early 1950's.

 

I checked up and found that for sure, based on magazine advertisements and Pop Photo directory issues, that Goerz Dagors, WA Dagors, Artars, and some other lenses were available by AOC Goerz (the company I told you about). I could find listings in 1946, through 1955. I'm sure that they were in this business before '46, '48, I didn't have any more old directories beyond that but I know that they sold the company to investors after that or at about that time. The old listings showed an AOC/Goerz address at 317 E. 34th St., NYC 16, later AOC/Goerz in Inwood, LI, NY. I believe that either they moved to Rochester or the company that bought them was in Rochester.

 

I'm sorry you don't believe me regarding some of these things, I'm 75 years old and have been a working photographer since 1947, and the people I knew were from 25 to 40 years older than I. As the former VP and manager of the lens bank, I personally handled hundreds of these old and new coated lenses some of which were from the original supply from Germany (manufactured in the early 1920's). Several American lens companies were some years ahead of the Europeans regarding lens coating and flash synchronization.

 

In fact, Kodak was producing rare earth (Lanthanum) glasses in the earliest 1930's, well ahead of everybody else. I believe that one of the earliest European Lanthanum glass lenses was the Voightlander Apo Lanthar, a truly superb lens.

 

Lynn

[profhlynnjones]

Hi guys,

 

Just found another from page 5, Miniature Photography Magazine, Aug. 1937, C. P. Goerz, American Optical Co., 317 E 34th St., NYC.

 

Lynn

[dan_fromm2]

Lynn, thanks for the reply. Sorry, what you quoted proves nothing at all.