M8 vs. Canon 5D Color

[markrinella]

I really want to like the M8, but the color is just killing me. The blue shirt in this picture says 100% cotton

on the label so I am suprised how far off the color is compared to the 5D. Is this just IR conamination or

something else? I used Capture One Pro to process each image.<div></div>

[markrinella]

Sorry, not sure how to post two photos at a time.<div></div>

[x-ray]

There's more green in the mans pants and red in the skin of the M8 image. Certainly like the D5 color better. Leica has a long way before they get to the performance and quality level of the 5D.

[fotografz]

What processing program and color profile are you using Mark?

 

You should try C-1 (as Leica has recommended) using the M8 selection in C-1 Preferences >

Color Management after loading Jamie Roberts C-1 profile he did for the M8.

 

Send me one of your RAW files and I'll process it in the right profile for you.

[vinay_patel]

Colour aside, the M8 shot definitely looks sharper but it also looks like the 5D shot has less DOF and contrast so maybe it just looks softer for that reason.

[cdnguyen]

I prefer the M8 colors better. Canon skin tone rendition is awful not natural at all. Leica has more realistic contrast and better sharpness. Canon has a long way getting their images up to snuff. Also Canon images require more processing to look anything like Leica IMHO.

[Brad_]

<I>Also Canon images require more processing to look anything like Leica IMHO.</I><P>

 

I suppose a photoshop filter could be written that would cause black areas to have a magenta

cast.

[vinay_patel]

"Canon skin tone rendition is awful not natural at all."

 

I'm not a Canon owner, but looking at those 2 shots on my monitor I would have to say that in the Leica shot grandpa looks like he has a slight case of rosacea, and in the Canon shot he looks a little cyanotic. Neither is what I'd call "way off" and I believe both could be easilyt seasoned to taste in Photoshop. The M8 shot also looks higher contrast, but what little shadow area there is doesn't show a lot of difference in detail, so perhaps the Leica can still see into the shadows at a higher contrast setting. It looks sharper, partly because of the increased contrast, and partly I think because there's more in focus (DOF). There's no doubt the M8 had a tremendous potential, but as the saying goes "a miss by an inch is as good as a miss by a mile".

[markrinella]

Looks much better, thanks Marc. The Leica shot was taken with a current version 35mm

Summicron, the Canon shot with with an EF 50mm f/1.4 lens. The Canon image does have

less depth of field and greater vignetting. In direct comparision between the two, I

consistently see more detail in the Canon images compared to the Leica. Both at similar ISOs

and processing parameters in Capture One. Focus is accurate in both cameras. The M8 went

back to Leica its first week to have the rangefinder adjusted because it was misaligned out of

the box.<div></div>

[jtk]

On my laptop the Canon's color is linear and realistic (the girl's shirt is neutral white/gray, the old guy's head is conventional caucasian), whereas the Leica girl's shirt is readily 3-5cc cyan and the olde fartte's head is 5cc magenta: the Leica color is distinctly crossed-over a'la Walmart processing or outdated color neg film: wouldn't be acceptable to a demanding art director.

 

We all know Canon can do professional work in color: the heat's on Leica to rise to that standard.

[jury]

is it just me or is Brad pretty passionate about this leica m8 thingy? oh my, you're not thinking of getting one, are you? :-)

[andrew robertson]

This is all chicken squawk anyway, because everybody who even cares a whit about color

will shoot RAW and apply their own custom profiles later on anyway. Especially with a

camera that exhibits a color cast!

 

The alternative of using the auto white balance or an ExpoDisc etc are time consuming and

worthless in mixed light.

 

There are procedures for creating a consistent color workflow. If this is an important point

for you than you can learn how to make the best of the equipment you have. There are

tons of books on the subject.

[markrinella]

Andrew, these photos were shot in raw. Even with custom profiles, the Leica's color just

doesn't look very good to me. I am hoping that IR filters correct the problem, but having to

wait until February, I am pessimistic about good color from the camera in the interim.

 

John, the "old fartte" is my dad.

[ray .]

<i>Even with custom profiles, the Leica's color just doesn't look very good to me.

</i>

<p>Have you spent enought time with it, in enough different lighting situations, to

get

a

real feel for that?

[ofey_kalakar]

The 5D shot looks flat and not as contrasty as the M8 shot. Definitely the Leica pic needs a

bit of color correction but it still has a nice punch and dimensional character.

[kevin m.]

For godssake, will someone quit "testing" the damned thing and go take some pictures that

are worth looking at? If this camera produces images that are "clearly special" (quote from

the Leica User Forum) is it only the camera owner who can see them, or can you share them

with the rest of the world? C'mon, already! ;-)

[Philip Freedman]

I have both a 5D and an M8. Here are two photographs taken with them at the same time, for comparison, of a black travel pouch, a black silk bow tie and a black Barbour jacket. Guess which is the Leica shot.

Philip

[Philip Freedman]

Here is the 5D shot mentioned in my last posting

Philip

[john_shaeffer2]

Phillip:

 

LOL--but isn't the Leica pic sharper :).

[Philip Freedman]

John

 

Both were handheld indoors at ISO 640, 1/60 @ f2.8 set to fine JPEG, and no out-of-camera sharpening. I hate to say it, but comparing the originals fully enlarged on screen zoomed in to "actual pixel" in Photoshop, the Canon (taken with a Canon 50mm f1.4 EF lens) is sharper and has more detail than the M8 (taken with the Summicron 35mm f2 asph.) The lenses give roughly the same field of view, of course. I am not sure if the extra 2 megapixels of the Canon makes the difference at actual pixel level or whether it is the result of its plainly better low light performance (quite apart from the IR issue). Not a scientific test since they were handheld and shake can differ from shot to shot, nor would one normally print that size image, but I believe the results are fairly representative of the real life situation (how many of us mainly use Leicas on tripods?).

 

Philip

[john_shaeffer2]

Philip--thanks, I was only kidding--about the sharpness. I have read a lot about the M8. Your pics really show the M8 issue everybody's talking about. Since you obviously have one, do you feel as a customer that you have been betrayed or anything like that?

 

I'll never own either the expensive Canon or Leica, but I appreciate you posting so that I could REALLY see what all the discussion is about.

[pico_digoliardi]

=You have to deal with setting the White Point.

 

Do that and be happy.

[pico_digoliardi]

<i>Both were handheld indoors at ISO 640, 1/60 @ f2.8 set to fine JPEG, and no out-of-camera sharpening. I hate to say it, but comparing the originals fully enlarged on screen zoomed in to "actual pixel" in Photoshop,[...]</i><p>

 

1/60th of a second doesn't make for a scientific, or rational comparison of sharpness. Camera shake. Get it? You have not provided a comparison at all.

<p>

The color is really up to you. How does the camera know what is white? You have to clue it in. And NB - white cotton is never white. There are very often brighteners in the fabric that respond to light differently than the eye does.

<p>

Please, please - no more of these unacceptable "comparisons". Just because one can afford to buy a high-end camera does not mean he's competent to make a serious test.<p>

"fiesty bunch wondering why a $5000 camera doesn't" automatically make a great picture. Really, one does have to learn some craft!

[andrew robertson]

"Andrew, these photos were shot in raw. Even with custom profiles, the Leica's color just

doesn't look very good to me"

 

How did you develop these profiles? I don't use Capture One, I use CS2 RAW, but there are

options in CS2 RAW to adjust the color of the shadowed zones. Would you possibly make

the DNG files available so I might have a hand at converting one of these M8 RAW files?

[guy_mancuso]

If I may jump in here and give a few thoughts. First and formost the M8 color is not were it should be at all with any of the profiles that are being used . i have done a lot of test so far withthe IR cut filter and yes ut cuts out all IR contamintion , that part works very well. The issue is there are no profiles at the moment for the IR cut filter for C1 , Images right now have a yellow/ cyan cast to them using the IR cut filter. Until a better profile is made i simply would not judge color on a critical level. Now without the filter in place Jamie has come up with a decent profile for it, BTW i am also a good friend of his and a profile in C1 without the filter simply will not get you there either. the IR light has to be blocked before it hits the sensor , no getting around it. Jamie's profile is very close and will eliminate the magenta cast but will also affect other color , here is that global thing again. This is the same issue I am having with the cut filter with going over to the yellow/cyan side . If i just go in and correct yellow than globally i push something else off the chart . So really until better profiles are made it is really hard to nail it. At the moment i see great potential for the M8 and will order a second one myself . It is very close to the DMR and actually the lenses are sharper so it does have a lot of potential . The issue is right now is getting a better profile to work with .After some firmware upgrades and the streaking issue is fixed this camera will be very very good. But your going to really have to start thinking of using the IR filter becuase it does not only effect black but the contamination leaks to other colors also. The bottom line is you need to block the IR light out and the only true way to do that is the IR cut filter . Otherwise leica would be recommending something else. Than when C1 and Raw developer come up with a profile for it than we are back in business again. brian at raw Developer is working on that now.

 

So if you really want to compare a 5D and a M8 than I would wait until at least the issue is solved to make a fair comparision. For ACR users there is a way to calibrate it for the use with the filters and i am hopingsomeone with profiling experience will do that soon if not Adobe. Have Fun Guy