Do I have to give the deposit back?

[caseychappell]

okay, I know I messed up by not having a contract with a friend of a friend who is getting married the day

after thanksgiving. but we handled pretty much everything over email and met initially to meet and go

over schedules and ideas and such a while back. I told her months ago that I would hold that date for her

and that she didn't need to have a deposit until the 3 month mark. She's been a very difficult bride to deal

with and very demanding but not very good with the details. (okay you're thinking, no contract, you're not

good with details! you're right!) BUT anyway, 3 weeks ago I did her engagement photos and the deadline

for her deposit had past but I told her she could give it to me then. I finished her E-session and gave her

over 100 images that I felt were in keeping with my style that she had seen and liked and all the images

were well exposed, artsy, and sharp! She called me today and said that she felt that the pictures weren't

as good as her friend had made me out to be and that she wanted to totally back out of the

wedding....which is in 2 weeks (I canceled all my Thanksgiving plans just to do this wedding!) I know my

fault! SO my question is, if I have nothing that says "non-refundable" in the deposit info do I HAVE to give

it all back? she's givin me 30% which is the deposit, I really don't want to give it back since it's this close to

the wedding, but I sure don't want to get sued over it!

 

Does anyone know the legal options I have to keep the deposit? Again, lesson learned, never again

without a contract! understood.

[jennie farnsworth]

If she's being difficult, it sounds like you've got your out now. Refund her money and be glad you're receiving just a slap on the wrist for your mistake. Plus, you can now using your Thanksgiving weekend for friends and family. It's a win-win.

[keith_van_hulle1]

My guess? She found somebody who is (a) cheaper - maybe much more so or (b) she's taken her sweet time to decide she doesn't like your style. Customers have no clue what the business side is like and she probably feels two weeks is enough time.

 

You've already provided some images. How? Disc, print, what? She has probably had enough time to dupe them so asking for a return of the images won't do you much good. However, in cases like this you WOULD return the deposit when she returns whatever you have provided her. Or let her keep the images, deduct your value from the 30% you have and return the rest. How much is the negative word of mouth from this bride and her family worth?

[laurenm]

I'm neither a lwayer nor a weddding pro (yet) so with that said...

 

I would say your legal rights are zero since you didn't have a contract. Assuming the engagement shoot was part of her "package" you could ask for the images back or charge her for the photo session and images. Yes, she may have copied them anyway, but if she is a friend of a friend, she may be cautious in displaying or showing the ones she copied for fear of you finding out so it may be easier on her to just pay you for them.

[picturesque]

Legal options? You don't have any if you don't have a contract. Since all of us on the forum aren't lawyers, best to check with a real lawyer if in doubt and you really want to pursue the issue. Personally, I would give her the money back and call it a lesson learned. You can see how far you can get by telling her you feel you have a right to the deposit since you held the date, but I doubt you can back that up legally without a contract. If you tried, it would all be based on the e-mails and it would probably cost you more to hire a lawyer and defend yourself than the deposit itself.

[kari douma]

I would just give it back, learn from your lesson, and move on. Now you know to have a contract. If she is a friend like you say, you'd be better off just walking away and not worrying about it. I know you are mad about it now, but let it go. She is probably a customer you wouldn't want to deal with later anyway.

 

If you do want some compensation, you could tell her "Here is your deposit back, minus $xxx.xx for the engagement session."

 

Good luck.

[littlemike]

Treat her the way you'd like to be treated. My USD 0.02

 

--

mike elliott

[timcorridan]

hi casey, its suprising to see someone with such a nice portflio, well exposed, artsy cropping, and sharp, without a contract. get one up and running, your work deserves to be protected. give back the deposit, minus xxx.xx for the engagement session. move on, even if you think she's getting away with something. next time with a contract. the 30% is yours.

[jeffrey_blake_adams]

Give it back, wish her well, enjoy your thanksgiving, you are lucky, if she's this much hassle now, what will she be like later? No contract, yikes!

 

IN the future use your contract, which I ASSUME you had a lawyer draw up for you so its good for your state. AND, I would suggest you not accept "deposits" but rather sell the entire wedding coverage, due at time of signing the contract, if you must, accept partial "payments" towards the entire coverage.

 

In some states, and with most credit cards, "DEPOSITS" are worthless, and subject to refund. However, payments towards the finished product are much more defensible.

 

Best wishes, Jeffrey

[al_kaplan1]

Figure out what the engagement shoot by itself is worth along with the 100+ images. If that's more than the deposit tell her you'll forgive her the difference and tell her how sorry you are that you won't be photographing her wedding. If it comes out to less than the deposit then refund the difference along with a note telling her how sorry you are that you won't be photographing her wedding.

 

A little creative accounting, your hourly rate, mileage, film and processing or digital capture fee, etc., etc., and likely as not she'll owe you money.

[cjogo]

As NADINE says :::

[anner]

Hmmm.. I wonder what kind of photographer she'll find to shoot her wedding with only two

weeks left? I'm going to guess that she'll end up regretting her decision!! Give her the

money back (or the portion which is above and beyond the engagement photos... or ask her

to give the engagement photos back), wash your hands of the hassle you'd have to deal with

afterward, and have a great Thanksgiving weekend!!

[annealmasy]

You'll have to check the laws in your state, but "deposit" typically means "refundable" - like

the deposit you place when you lease an apartment, or a car. "Retainer" refers to a payment

toward the balance due, and may be non-refundable.

[caseychappell]

Thank you so much! Your wise counsel is very appreciative. Lesson learned the hard way.

It's just so hard not to be ticked off at just the total rudeness she's approached everything

with. Even from the get go she was very snobby and demanding but not in a way that she

knew what a professional was supposed to be or do and I wasn't doing that. Just in a

bridezilla way! I was watching it the other day on TV and thought that she should be on

there, and this was before all this.

 

To answer a few things, I kept the engagement fee apart from the package price, and she

recieved a CD and a few enlargements with that. So as far as I see, I just need to refund

the 30% that she paid me and just move on.....and yes, RELAX during my thanksgiving

weekend! Sucks, though I sure needed that job before the holidays! And it was going to be

a Latino Wedding and I would have loved to add the multi-culture wedding to my portfolio.

But it was going to be a LOT of work from what they told me Latino weddings are like! :o)

 

I'm adding the engagement session to a folder in my gallery (nancy) Were they really that

bad?

[savagesax]

Sorry this happened Casey. I'd give the money back. It hurts to give money back, but it is excellent business practice and thank God that it hardly ever happens. Sounds to me they found someone, a friend or whomever, to do it for free.

[elliot1]

I think the lesson to learn is not to deal with anyone you consider difficult. I passed on a wedding last year - over the phone, the bride's mother said her daughter 'picky', and in additional to a list of specific guidlines she wanted followed, she didn't want a flash used. When I met with the mother face-to-face, I realized why the daughter was the way she was and politely told her she needed to find another photographer.

 

I had a client come in yesterday to discuss a bar-mitzvah next year. I present several albums of recent events I had shot, including a beautiful bar-mitzvah album from an party I shot last May - she refused to look at any of them. Instead, she gave me her laundry list of 'demands'. Should she call back, I am going to tell her the date has been booked.

 

My suggestion - PASS on difficult clients.

 

And for my 2 cents worth, with only a few weeks prior to cancellation, I would have kept the deposit. This is customary. Had it been three months out, that might be another story.

 

In any case, she did you a favor. Can you imagine having to deal with her after the wedding? Enjoy your turkey!

[caseychappell]

elliot~ so wise about the passing on clients you have a gut feeling are not going to be true to

you or may in fact bring your business more harm than good.

 

those pictures are in the single photo folder at the top of my gallery

[darrengold]

If you didn't have a contract then neither of you have any legal standings. The money she has paid you could as Al Kaplan said, be for services so far rendered.

 

Send an invoice for at least as much, if not for more than she's given you and as said tell her as she's a friend of a friend you'll forget the difference and wish her well.

 

If she doesn't like it she can sue you. She won't. But on what grounds. You did the work, she paid and got a recipt for services rendered. Don't let possible legal action or worries of court make you a pushover. Very few people ever go to court.

 

In the end you have to decide which you want least. Her telling everyone you wouldn't give her deposit back when she cancelled at the last minute, or that people should hire you because even if they change their mind and cancel at the last minute you still refund the deposit.

 

If it were me she wouldn't be getting her money back. I'm not a totally heartless b'stard (if it were for a good reason eg bereavement, illness, etc etc) I would, but not because someone feels like taking the piss. Business is business.

 

Good luck.

[bruce_rubenstein___nyc]

For a contract to be valid it must contain several required elements (it's been over 30 years since I took a business law class, so I'm not going to list them from a foggy memory). Valid contracts can be oral and not written down, but it's more difficult to prove anything if it's not written down.

 

Whether money paid in advance is a deposit or a retainer depends more on how it is treated rather than the language used in the contract. If the amount is a percentage of the total fee, rather than a fixed amount, then it can be found to be a deposit. In most states (probably all, since there is a uniform businees code) a deposit is refundable.

 

Photographers really need to have their contracts reviewed by an attorney so that they are on solid legal ground, and things like retainers are properly structured.

[kelly_flanigan1]

If a deposit is always refundable, whats the purpose of the deposit? One should study the purpose of a deposit before one gets into a pickle. If you turn down other work and then you return a deposit to another, what does the deposit really do? A proper deposit is done for a reason, and the few reasons it should be returned clearly defined, and known by both parties.

[kelly_flanigan1]

What if you shot the wedding, and she gave you a deposit on printing 1000 dollars worth of lab costs for making prints? How stupid would be to honor a spineless "I'll alwys give back the deposit" stance ? What would you do with the prints if I already printed them? Some photographers actually whine to print shops and want them to not bill/invoice actual print jobs that are done.; and then not wanted. Time is money, your time and materials is worth something too. You cannot always fill a lost job wedding at the last minute. For the next job clearly define what the purpose of the deposit is.

[kelly_flanigan1]

A problem customer often has in their DNA to want you to hold the bag. They have done this all their life, its in their makeup. You want clear simple wording and a guideline that they cannot warp to their advantage. The entire emotional aspect needs to be thrown out, with a flowchart of where the deposit stands and is refunded.

[kiva]

Actually you might consider giving her a few bucks extra along with the refund in payment for the lesson she's extended to you; ask her how much she generally charges for these type of lessons and pay up!

 

oh, and remember the lesson in the future.

Keep smiling.

[gaetano catelli]

i think Al Kaplan's advice on how to handle this is sound, as usual.

 

please note: THERE IS A CONTRACT. as a theoretical matter, a verbal agreement is no less legally binding than a written one. but of course, as a practical matter, the problem is proving the terms of the agreement without having a writing that 'memorializes' them. i emphasize this because i don't want photographers (or clients) to believe that a 'handshake deal' isn't a contract. it is.

 

as noted, a he-said/she-said agreement is tough to enforce in court. however, the engagement pictures are certainly provable and there would be no question that the bride is contracturally liable for the reasonable price for these.

 

i agree that this person is used to getting away with these kinds of stunts. i also agree with those who say you should be relieved because you have 'dodged a bullet' by not getting even more involved with this person.

[tim_delorto]

To the terms of a contract,</br>

<br>Never assume.</br>

<br>Just be glad you're the photographer,</br>

<br>And not the groom.</br>