is there any one ashame of this leica talk?

[roberto_watson_garc_a]

So what´s wrong about shoptalk, I don´t know if Leicas has any special reason to talk about them, but for sure the Q&A I´ve been following here for the last months, have been the most interesting I´ve read and talk about the intruments that I use to do what I love the most, there are for sure among us people with diferent reasons why to like or dislike Leicas, some collectos can be, I don´t have any thing against them (to be onest), but for sure this place is full of people sharing experiences about the use of their cameras, and yes M leicas users can be a very select group, and not because of the cost of it, after all we can buy a M for the same money we can buy an EOS, (of course not a new one); what can make us diferent is the radicaly diferent way to performe a craft when using a leica M and when using a SLR, and I´m not saing better or worst, but there are a lot of things that you as a photographer must develop when using a rangefinder that don´t need when using a SLR even an earlier one. And is that what we try to talk about here, it is a SHAME that such a fact can´t be easily understood by other "LEICA USERS", that seem not to have any thing to say about this simple craft.When I used a SLR system I was clear I needed a large bag, so there was not a diferent point, when usind a Leica M, I want to be ligth to move, so I apreciate the solutions other photographers have for this, is not a matter of fashion.Well i don´t know what else to say, just wanted to share to you the reasons why I like this place, hope we don´t have to go other places because of season bugs.

[paul_nelson3]

No Mate, I'm not ashamed of the talk about the gear, it's use, and

the creative/tech talk that goes with the M. But freedom of speech,

like any freedom, must be protected. We also have to protect that

freedom from abuse, overuse, and just plain bad manners.

 

<p>

 

I suppose everyone has a right to say what they think, but if every

one talks at once, you have a cacophony. Generally, this forum has

been very circumspect in it's subject matter, and good manners. I

hope it stays that way. And when it doesn't, well, you can always

vote with your feet! Some forums degenerate into slanging matches,

with contributors venting their anger at one another. That hasn't

happened here. And if it does, we should all get on the horn and ban

the culprit that is bringing the level down. P Nelson

[tommy_chung]

I have followed this forum for the last few months and I must say

that I have thoroughly enjoyed it. Being about to talk and read

about other people's experiences with the Leica cameras is a joy to

me.

 

<p>

 

It may not be everyone's cup of tea.....but I now find that I need my

daily fix.

 

<p>

 

thankyou to all.

 

<p>

 

Tommy

[dan_brown4]

I very much enjoy owning and using my new M6/50 'cron. It was

expensive, yes, but not as much as other photo gear. For

example, a Nikon F5 and 28-70/2.8 AFS is considerably more

money. So, Leica users aren't necessariy about owning the

most expensive gear. I think it is the quality feel and function.

The highly precise optics. The simplicity of the instrument. The

lack of technical features. They are just a joy to own and use.

Deep down, I think all those who love photography want/should

own and use a Leica sometime during their life. (And, I think

they should also experience their own B&W processing to

complete the experience). We are lucky that Leica still makes

these cammeras, as they are a thing of a years gone by, a thing

that perhaps only the German culture could propagate. And to

talk about them, well that is way to expend the pleasure of

owning and using the camera with others that share my feelings

about it. Its a club of sorts, not unlike other clubs where people

share other similar experiences. I think those that criticize Leica

the most are those that secretly want to join our club.

[jackflesher]

I have been tuned in to this forum for about three months now, and I

have grown to respect and look forward to the level of exchange that

takes place here. In contrast, I tuned in to the LUG page at about

the same time -- I then signed on for about one week, only to grow

weary of the excessive bantering one had to wade through to glean any

usefull information or novel ideas; so I signed off LUG, never to

return. I'm very happy with this group. We seem to deal quite handily

(and yet, politely) with the odd off-course post ourselves, so I

don't think we need make any moves towards censorship. I

alternatively think we should look at such posts as opportunities to

differentiate ourselves from the norm in web-forums, as we seem to be

doing currently.

 

<p>

 

As for our choice of camera... It seems that almost all of us have

migrated to the M (and also the R) from some other SLR system. For me

it was from Nikon. I still have my Nikons, but to be sure, the size

of the outfit has dwindled, and will likely continue to do so until I

reach the minimum of Nikon gear needed to accomplish what I cannot do

with the M -- Probably down to one body, the 80-400 VR and 24-85

zooms. The reasons? For starters, I feel more in control of the

image; the optics are exceptional; the mechanical quality is second

to none; stealth; weight; and did I mention image quality? In many

respects, I think our plight is similar to that of many wine lovers --

after you've gently carresed a fine Bordeaux in concert with a well

prepared meal, you have a difficult time returning to jug wine and

cheeseburgers!

 

<p>

 

Humbly honored to be part of this group,

[fred_o.]

Hi,

For people willing to spend mega bucks pursuing perfection, who cares,

I enjoy it after hard working, not to mention the audiophile group,

willing to spend $500 for a WE300B tube or a pair of $2K speaker

cables.

But if you've listened to a good tube amp sing, you'll understand.

Just like Leica, if you're able to see the difference, just enjoy it

and be proud of your ability to appreciate the difference. It's a lot

better than spending in the casino or cigarettes(health issue only).

[bobtodrick]

I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything that has been

said in this thread. One thing I'd like to add though. I left the

Leica homepage forum because there were a number of people

posting who obviously were not Leica users but had clued into

the fact that most Leica users will defend to the death our

'oddness' :-) The forum regularily sunk to low levels as we were

baited, and then (myself included) vigorously (too much so)

defended ourselves.

I think the humour which has been shown in the few recent

baiting posts on this forum is exactly the way to handle these

incidents. Light humour is not what these people want, and will,

I hope, usually send them on their way.

[angus_ngtg]

I find this lug much more interesting then the Leica User Group. I

monitored it and found that it wasn't for me. I like that I can ask

questions here and not have to wade through a huge amount of e-mail.

As for the Leica M, I am now officially a true believer. After many

years of using SLR's I sold all of my Canon gear and purchased Leica M

cameras and I'll never go back. For the work I do the camera is

wonderful. There is a learning curve but as time passes I get

increasingly more confident with the system and the lenses simply

can't be beat. I love the Leica look. I am also fascinated with the

cameras history and marvel at how many memorable, significant and just

plain great photos that were and still are made with M cameras. I

have also had the pleasure of working with one of the photographers on

this list who in my humble opinion is one of the best Leica

photographers I've seen. He helped me really see the virtues of the

camera in practice.

 

<p>

 

T. Gallagher

[matt_veld]

I agree about the comments concerning the LUG. I find it of little

value and inhabitated by some very rude egocentric individuals as

well. This forum is relaxed and very informative. I look forward to

reading the posts here.

[Spearhead]

<i>We are lucky that Leica still makes these cammeras, as they are a

thing of a years gone by, a thing that perhaps only the German

culture could propagate. </i><p>

 

One should think carefully before making statements like this. In

fact, the culture in which Leica evolved, one in which it, like many

other German industries, chose to be part of, propagated the Third

Reich. Leica made no effort to employ Jewish people, to protect

them, or, like many individuals and a small number of people, to help

Jews, Gypsies and others who were slaughtered. Germany is different

now, but the Germany in which much of Leica's innovation took place

in is not one that should in any way be celebrated.

[Rob F.]

Good point, Jeff. Certainly the Leica is about perfectionism. At

its best, perfection can be about peak performances, such as Galina

Mezentzeva and Constantin Zaclinsky dancing a perfect Giselle. Doing

something as well as humans can do it. Eisenstadt's shot of the

sailor kissing the nurse in times square. Leontyne Price as Carmen.

Renoir's painting of the little girl with the watering can. Meryl

Streep as Sophie Zawistoska. At its worst, it can be about wishing

to build a master race, and exterminating everybody who doesn't meet

the standard. Or Hiroshima. Every person exhibits a best and a

worst side given enough time. This appears to be true of nations,

too. Germany seems to be kinder and gentler these days.

[bobtodrick]

We are lucky that Leica still makes these cammeras, as they are a

thing of a years gone by, a thing that perhaps only the German

culture could propagate.

 

<p>

 

 

The above seems to me to be a statement of opinion, maybe even fact.

To deny that the Leica evolved out of the Germany of the 1920's and

30's is to deny that this period existed. The old 'we are doomed to

repeat that which we choose to forget'.

[doug herr]

Jeff Spirer wrote:

 

<p>

 

>>>

Leica made no effort to employ Jewish people, to protect them, or,

like many individuals and a small number of people, to help Jews,

Gypsies and others who were slaughtered.

<<<

 

<p>

 

Jeff, can you substantiate this statement? I had heard the opposite

was true and I'm not in a position to determine which is closer to

the truth.

[dan_brown4]

"Be careful", sage advice indeed. However, I wasn�t trying to

invoke any prejudice.

 

<p>

 

At the end of WWII, industrial nations converted from wartime to

peacetime industry. Respecting photographic gear in particular,

many excellent rangefinder camera systems were developed

and introduced. The Nikon M and S cameras made in occupied

Japan, for example. Canon, Contax, Kodak, and many other

makers were active in this area. During the 1950�s the

rangefinder ranked supreme in the market.

 

<p>

 

In 1954 (nine years after the war ended), Leica introduced the M3

in an effort to catch-up with its competition. A successful camera

indeed. But the competition continued and in 1959 Nikon

introduced the F series SLR, a huge success by any measure.

During the 1960� and 1970�s the SLR came to dominate the

market and most rangefinder models were discontinued. Leica

attempted to modernize the M line with the M5, which failed.

Then, reverted to the M6, which continued through the 1980�s

and 1990�s. When I spoke of the German culture propagating

the quality of Leica generally and the rangefinder specifically, I

was thinking about the 70�s, 80�s and 90�s (and now the 00�s).

All the other rangefinders had fallen victim to the market, Leica

persisted. Good for us!

 

<p>

 

As far as an innocent victims go, I propose that recent history

has demonstrated that during the "propagation" period I

discussed, one has been far more like to die from an American,

British, Israeli, Iraqi, Iranian, Russian, etc., and etc. bullet than a

German bullet.

[iván]

I'm new to this site and joined it in order to talk and learn about

Leica Ms. I think it is not crazy to assume that mostly everybody

else who is here has similar reasons so that I 'd like to make a

sugestion: lets talk and learn about our matter of interest and just

don't ever never answer messages which are away of this line of

thinking. Simple and potentialy efective to keep the site clean of

contents that belong somewhere else.

[Rob F.]

But, Ivan, the connection between the Leica and the events in Germany

in the 30's and 40's are bound to occur to all of us Leica users at

some point. These anxieties are relevant, and real, and one should

feel free to air them here when they come up. There's no virtue in

being in denial.

[ray_moth]

To criticize Leica for having survived the 30s and 40s is pointless.

You might as well condemn every other German company that managed to

do so. I'm not aware that Leitz/Leica has any skeletons in the

cupboard from the Nazi era, which, after all, lasted little more than

a decade. Leica products and the excellence thereof are a tribute to

German engineering, not politics.

 

<p>

 

Ray Moth

[nesrani]

"But, Ivan, the connection between the Leica and the events in

Germany in the 30's and 40's are bound to occur to all of us Leica

users at some point. These anxieties are relevant, and real, and one

should feel free to air them here when they come up. There's no

virtue in being in denial."

 

<p>

 

They've never occurred to me and I don't see them as being at all

relevant. After all, when I buy a Palm V organiser I don't agonise

about the 2 million or so Vietnamese civilians slaughtered by the USA

during the 60's and 70's. Does that mean I'm in denial? I don't think

so.

 

<p>

 

BTW, I'm German myself, which probably explains my indifference to

the shadow of the past.

[roberto_watson_garc_a]

the Leica is an instrument, but what we run through it, is for

certain our entire culture, is great we can have a place for that

too, I belive what we see through our finders is not what´s phisicaly

in forn of us, but our most hidden past.I most admit I stopped seeing

my analist since joint this room, photographers tendt to keep things

in our minds for long, great place for psicoanalisis, at least for me.

[victor_randin3]

Yes, a Leica is a camera only, an instrument that was created with

talented engineers, and as for me, NOT any politics, nazism,

nationalism, communism, racism and any other words like these, the

worst human race contrived.

[bobtodrick]

Victor, easy enough to say that you don't worry about politics if

you live in comfort in a free nation, which of course I am

assuming you do. But if you live in, say Bosnia, for example, the

politics of everything becomes suspect. A matter of perspective,

I'd say.

[MTC Photography]

Jews played an important role in the development of German camera

industry, for example, Dr. Emanual Goldberg, as head of R&D at Zeiss

played pivotal role in the development of Contax rangefinder camera

and

the technique of microdot photography.

<p> Another prominant Jewish inventor is Walter Zapp, who invented

the Minox spy camera.

<p> It is dubious logic to associate German camera with "Nazi

culture"

<p> A few years ago, I read somwhere that Ernst Leitz and family

were sympathical to Jews, and protected them during the Nazi era.

However, I cannot recall the source.

[Robin Smith]

Well, the Ur-Leica was designed in 1913, and the Leica I was produced

in the 1920s. Oskar Barnack was therefore really a man of the Second

Reich and the Weimar Republic not the Third Reich, I therefore do not

see that Leica are particularly tainted with the crimes of that

regime, but they did continue to operate during the war and during

the Nazi era. Many (most) Germans did too. The crimes of the Third

Reich are not particularly concentrated in Leica if at all, excepting

the fact that they were part of the industrial complex of that

nation. They cannot be compared with such giants as Krupp/Thyssen-

Krupp, Volkswagen, or IG Farben/BASF who undoubtedly participated in

the active rearmament of Germany and/or the Final Solution or used

massive amounts of poorly treated slave labor. Germans do share a

collective guilt of that era it is true, but the spirit of Leica

seems to me to have little to do with anything particularly Nazi -

unless, of course, camera and optical excellence are intrinsically

evil.

[msitaraman]

The sins of the fathers shall not be visited on the children.

 

<p>

 

It has indeed been a long time since the war, and we are talking

about the grandchildren of wartime Germans who are producing the

grandchild of a camera originally made after the war.

 

<p>

 

The moral link between Leicas and Nazis is tenuous indeed. Why

resuscitate and amplify the evil of the latter by using the former as

a reminder?

 

<p>

 

That being said, there is a certain neo-Nazi/totalitarian nostalgia

sub-culture that celebrates Nazi-ism, the German war machine of WWII,

efficiency, and Germanic machinery such as Panzers, Mercedes Benz and

Leica. Sherry Krauter, a used Leica repair and spare-parts outfit,

reportedly sells Nazi paraphernalia, and may well be an example of

such an attitude.

 

<p>

 

But attack and destroy the attitude, not the inanimate objects it

attaches to, especially when those objects (cameras) have such an

innocent use, namely amateur photography.

 

<p>

 

For me, my Leica reminds me of the thousands of happy pictures of my

(beleagured!) family that I have taken. And, BTW, my Nikon does not

remind me of the Japanese war-mongers of yesteryear either.

[msitaraman]

In the above post I state

 

<p>

 

"Sherry Krauter, a used Leica repair and spare-parts outfit,

reportedly sells Nazi paraphernalia, and may well be an example of

such an attitude".

 

<p>

 

I have had no contact with Ms. Sherry Krauter, and have repeated what

I have read¡¡in the internet.

 

<p>

 

Similarly, I have also read that Ms. Krauter is a superbly talented

Leica repairperson-of-last-resort.

 

<p>

 

Based solely upon my own reflection on the matter, wish to withdraw

my comment without reservation.¡¡

 

<p>

 

The rest of my post stands as is.