Need helpful technical advice

[darice michelle]

I shot a wedding that I had a heck of a time with. It was a dark church with high ceilings.

I used my 2.8 16mm wide angle lens and 2.8 70-200mm lenses for most of my shots. I

bounced my lens when I could, but when it came to these formal shots, it was an utter

technical nightmare. My wide angle had trouble getting sharp images - blurry. I bounced

my flash but the light reflected off the alter door in the back. How could I have avoided

this? I do not use off the camera flash due to time constraint issues, is there another

faster way to do formals without setting up a bunch of lights? Or not?

 

Thanks for everyone's time and talent...<div></div>

[darice michelle]

My dear good friend Ken, since you know so much about photography, I would love for

you to correct me once again. Yes, I know I mispelled altar! What can I say, I am in some

serious need for spelling lessons and photography lessons... ha ha.

 

My formal shots all came out with the reflected light off the altar alone with blurriness.

How do I get my formal shots to be CRISP sharp?

 

Thanks Ken, and to everyone else who is so generous with their knowledge.

[picturesque]

Don't have any answer for you re the OOF images. Maybe your autofocus had a tough time? What camera/flash were you using? You can autofocus and check your distance scale on the lens to confirm, or use zone focus (with wide angles) or manual focus.

 

The altar door reflections you can do nothing about unless you can open the doors so that the angle of incidence is different. Otherwise, you "hide" the reflections in people's bodies (you may need to go lower to do this) or change your angle so you get no reflection.

[steve_levine]

You could have "avoided this" by learning what you are doing before shooting a wedding. You questions are basic "photo 101" stuff, not wedding photography questions.

 

When someone talks about "technial nightmares", "bouncing my lens", and shooting a wedding with a 16mm lens, it makes my head hurt.

[kelvinphoto - arlington, t]

Learn how to use your flash manually and don't depend on TTL technologies.

[steakandale]

I have read threads here from experienced pros asking the same questions. The older thread I read was with a large granite tiled back wall that reflected everything. The advice to open the wood doors is the best idea, block them open just enough to open up the angle. Shooting angle was also the fix for the granite wall. You may have to shoot just the doors and photoshop the glare out.

 

About the focus, thats a tough one. We can only guess without more info, but I suspect a "back focus" problem. I think back focus is a misnomer and its really a missed focus problem. Sometimes the center focus icon in the viewfinder is smaller or larger than the focus sensor's sensitivity and if you lay the bar across the edge of the bride's head, it may actually lock onto the back of the room.

 

Where did you get your focus from? did you use the central single sensor, which is usually the most sensitive/accurate? and where did you place it? Sometimes focusing and recomposing will change the focus point enough with an open/small aperture enough to cause blur, or a just-missed focus. If shooting digital you can "chimp" with max zoom in to varify focus on the eyeballs.

[bruce_rubenstein]

Your camera focused on the background (it's in focus). You have to watch this. With wide angle lenses in particular, you have to make sure that the camera is focusing on your intended subject. For really sharp pictures, and this is how you want your formals, if you have low light levels you will have low shutter speeds, and you really need the camera up on a tripod. With a tripod you can get away with shutter speeds as low as 1/4 sec., and need much less flash. With the camera on a tripod it's often useful to have the AF activated by a button on the back of the camera rather than the shutter release. This way you can focus, recompose and lock down the camera without it refocusing when you release the shutter.

[KenPapai]

I am happy to help -- one thing is your focus appears to be on the background. Another your posed image is tilted a lot. It's hard to really "fix" out of focus main subjects.

 

Do you use a diffuser on your Speedlite? (You said once you "bounced" your lens, you mean the flash I am sure) This should be a pretty easy shot to get -- shoot in Manual mode at ISO 400 and let the flash handle the main subject exposure at whatever shutter speed and f-stop you want. The 16-35 2.8L is more than adequate for this work.

[KenPapai]

Rotated, white balanced, and Selectively sharpened:<div></div>

[bill_clark___minnetonka_mi]

I arrive quite early to every wedding, before any of the players are on site. My assistants are right with me. The first thing I do is set up my equipment to create the formals. This takes me little time and I'm through before anyone else arrives. While I'm doing this my assistants are getting ready to perform their assigned duties.

 

For me having a game plan down helps. With times to do the various tasks. Attending the rehearsal is a must for me. I use the rehersal as a get acquainted time for me to be with the staff of the ceremony, working out the details for the big day. I show them my typed outline so they know what I want to do. Sometimes a few minor changes are made but I haven't had to do much once staff knows how organized I Am.

 

At any rate, if you have time constraints then you're not planning properly. The best surprise is no surprise.

 

Learn to use studio lighting equipment on location. Including a wireless transmitter system. Use a tripod.

 

You have a nice web site and pretty good rates. Now you need to learn the basics of formal pictures and you'll be on your way.

 

I wrote this only to help you.

 

Hope you have a great year.

[fotografz]

Here's the spec's on your shot Darice:

 

you used a 16-35/2.8 lens set to 31mm @ f/2.8. Presuming this is a Canon crop frame

camera, that is the equal to a 50mm on a full frame camera. Nothing wrong with that focal

length for those type shots.

 

Your camera was set on ISO 800 using Aperture Priority, which, in that light, selected a

shutter speed of 100th of a second. Not the best solution. In this shot the subjects are

primarily lit by the ambient light rather than the flash ... which accounts for the red

coloration and dark eye and chin shadows.

 

When indoors try setting the camera on Manual mode. Then select the shutter speed

needed to avoid movement ... like 1/50th with a 31mm focal length. And if you are hand

holding the camera, select an aperture like f/4 or smaller (meaning f/5.6) to assure

enough depth of field. The flash will do the rest. TTL flash is fine.

 

The focus issue is user error. Bruce's suggestion is a good solution ... or learn how to use

a select focus point (see manual).

 

If I were you, I'd get a tripod and use it for these type shots.

 

The best to you, keep at it.<div></div>

[darice michelle]

This was all super helpful everyone! Ken, you are amazing with ps!!! I wish I had your

brain!

 

The tilt on the photos really was a problem with this wedding. My photos rarely have so

much tilt. It was a crazy wedding, everything was rushed.

 

The timing wasn't actually my fault. The bride and groom had major problems that came

up that day and things got all out of wack with timing, so I was rushed trying to get all the

formals done in time. This is probably the reason for the tilted images (I will do better

next time).

 

Yes I meant to say "bounced the flash" not "lens".

 

I was using AF on my lens and used custom function on the 20D to focus. I had the focus

point set on the eyes of the bride (not the background), but for some odd reason it didn't

focus on them. I didn't find this out till I got home and started pulling up the images on

my mac. I used unsharp mask, but it wasn't helping.

 

About setting up all the lights, goodness gracious, do you all really set up that much for

formals? Most photographers I know don't use tripods anymore and don't use other

lighting equipment besides the one on their camera.

 

I used a 580EX, TTL with the Lightsphere II. ISO 800, f/ 2.8 I don't remember the speed

set. But when I am holding the camera I dare not go below 1/100.

 

Opening the altar doors was a perfect solution, wish I would have thought of that before. I

will be more prepared next time : )

 

My two major weaknesses as a photographer is lighting and ps. Thank you all for

inspiring me to grow in this area. This was a huge motivator for me.

 

Darice

[darice michelle]

Mark, just read your post. It was fantastic. Isn't 1/50 for speed too low with no tripod?

Or is this advice with using a tripod?

 

There was a huge and I mean HUGE candle chandelier above them, I wonder if this played

a role with the shadows under their eyes????

 

I have been shooting portrait work (using all natural light), recently I have dove into the

wedding world, so this is all new to me. I greatly appreciate everyone teaching me and

helping me to be a better photographer.

 

My hats off to everyone

 

Darice

[KenPapai]

1/50 is not too slow -- you can hold that at 31mm easy. You need some ambient light so don't shut it off with too fast a shutter.

Auto focus sometimes will not choose the exact spot you are aiming. You have to be very careful because right next to the bride's eyes is the background. With a wide lens you do not need to focus on the brides eyes -- you have enough DOF to cover all, esp. at ISO 400, f/5.6.

 

But, you know, if you have the extra 60 seconds to setup and tear down a tripod you cannot beat it!

 

Marc's corrections were excellent (and his advice is priceless... I just wish he'd spell ACR correctly ;).

[fotografz]

What's ACR?

[KenPapai]

el 'Adobe Camera Raw' (ala "ARC" ;)

[picturesque]

First, the 20D does have flaky autofocusing. There is no doubt about that. Sometimes it seems to have a mind of it's own and likes to backfocus on a high contrast, bright object in the background, even when you specifically tell it not to. Read the following as well as the thread below re DSLR focusing by N L.

 

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic2/241524/0#2184530

 

To make sure your focus is good on your formals, I suggest that if you keep the focus control with the shutter button, be extra careful and double check before pressing the shutter button. I sometimes check my focus scale as a confirmation or look at my Katz Eye split prism in the viewfinder as a confirmation. I also have autofocus set to the * button (custom function 4).

 

As for the rest of the posts, you didn't ask about anything besides blurry images and reflections, but I would like to second Marc's comment against using AV for formals, for the same reasons he gives. You do not control the lighting--the camera does. That's not what you want to do. And multiple lighting does not help with sharp photos or reflections (I use multiple lights). In fact, reflections are worse because you now have another source of light to reflect.

 

As for tripods, to some degree, you can get away with shutter drag as long as the flash is the main source of light (AV is no good here). However, tripods do help in other, non-technical ways. First, you can take your hands off the camera/flash, walk around, talk to your subjects, arrange them, etc. without having to set it down (although I move the whole thing if a large group is assembling or dispersing up the aisle), thereby maintaining the same distance you were from your groups previously. Second, if you have your focus set to the * button, you need not refocus from frame to frame, minimizing focus error. Third, once you level your camera carefully, you can maintain that level, minimmizing tilting. Tripods aren't evil. Get a good tripod head and quick release system and learn to work with it quickly.

[marv_stasak___southfield__]

Nadine is correct. Use a tripod when doing formals for all the reasons she suggested. I think it unwise to use auto focus for formals or portraits; it's too easy to be off. With a tripod and manual focus, it's easy to focus, make any corrections to posing even if you have to walk up to the group, go back to the mounted camera, check focus and shoot. If you are tripod mounted, even if you have to drag the shutter at a 1/15 or so to register the ambient light at a decent ratio, you will be fine. Most groups, even with children, will be able to hold a pose that long.

[picturesque]

Also, chandeliers don't usually pose a problem when bouncing unless you are aiming your beam obliquely at it, resulting in shadows on the ceiling, not in eye sockets. The shadows in eye sockets were probably from your use of AV, causing the ambient light to be primary.

[david_schilling___chicago_]

Bridal party. Bread & Butter shooting. No tripod. Auto focus, Manual setting, Handheld, 1/45th sec at f/5.6, Vivitar 283 set to overexpose by one stop, direct flash, on stroboframe quick flip bracket, Quantum 1+ battery attached to bracket, & color print film. It's a wedding, no second chances, and no excuses.<div></div>

[bruce_rubenstein]

The actual, active area of AF sensors is often larger than what is marked in the viewfinder. This makes it easy for the sensor to focus on something in the background. This is particularly true if there are things in the background with greater contrast, or strong lines that are easy for the AF to lock onto.

[fotografz]

How about a little pot stirring?

 

One of the reasons I've migrated back to using MF film for these type shots is that I don't

have to screw around with them in PS afterwards.

 

I don't know what it is, maybe the latitude film provides and/or the more powerful MF

flash, but I just shoot and the proofs are always right on. Done.

 

Now before everyone gets on their high horse, I understand how to balance the lighting

with digital and all that, but it still always seems to end up needing some screwing around

with to get it as good as the film proofs are with no screwing around.

 

Formals have to be done and are NOT easy because of the time pressures and every venue

is different in some way. Plus you can end up with a load of them, all of which have to be

perfect ... so I resent ANY extra time needed to get them pristine. IMO, these are NOT fun

to work on in PS, they are redundant and boring tasks unlike the more creative pics

enhanced in PS.

 

IMO, all the advantages of digital are basically useless when shooting formals. I sure don't

have time to zoom in to see if someone's eyes are closed. Heck, I've had as little as 15

minutes to get all the Alter formals. Seeing if the light's right? If you don't know that by

looking at the scene you're in trouble anyway. Light balance? I'm on a tripod, set the

shutter at the focal length, or drag it some if the background is dark, set f/5.6 or f/8 for

DOF, and the TTL D-40 gets it right every time. I don't ever worry about it. No yellow skin,

no deep eye and chin shadows, the background is there.

 

Here's an example. One of 20 different formal shots from this wedding that required 2

rolls of 220 ( about $25. extra over shooting digital because the proofs are the same

price). So, for $25. I got the 20 shots at presentation quality right out of the camera.<div></div>

[fotografz]

I guess it's all personal preference, but I REALLY despise working on these type shots or

the redundant processionals. I don't despise shooting them, just working on them

afterwards to correct the short comings of digital.

 

Another thought is to shoot the formals outside whenever possible. I think Mary Ball does

this as a matter of practice. I'm pushing for it where ever I can now.

 

Here's another shot from a different wedding where all the formals were done outdoors.

Shot with a Hasselblad 203FE, TTL D-40 for fill and Portra NC 400 film ... which handled

the broad spread of light values to hold the sky and dress detail ... so once again, shoot,

lab, done.<div></div>

[kevin wisdom]

Marc,

Just wondering what MF camera you usually shoot with for indoor formals?

[jennifer valencia]

Marc, those are great pictures - so nice and sharp, with perfect colors. I think if you know what you're doing (as you clearly do!), then film *can* be easier sometimes. It DOES get frustrating to have to adjust each and every shot from a digital camera. No matter how much work I do upfront, I STILL have to do at least a little bit (white balance or levels) on 90% of my digital shots. Or at least I get the urge to check and make sure I can't make them better.

 

I don't have that level of film expertise, though, and I already gave away my film camera to my dad. So it's digital fun for me...

 

Jennifer