Old Leica M2 frame lines vanishing

[ron_gregorio]

I recently purchased a second-hand Leica M2 body after much deliberating on whether I should get a Leica, and if so, which M model. Basically, I couldn't afford a new or even a second-hand M6 so I got an M2. It doesn't look good cosmetically as some of the black coat have rubbed off, but the shutter, focusing, film advance, and self-timer mechanism are smooth and solid. I'm still saving up for a used 35/2 or 50/2 Summicron lens (coming next month's salary).

 

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However, I noticed that the 50mm, and 75mm(?) frame lines aren't as visible as the 35mm (the default one). In fact, they're practically invisible. Also, the viewfinder isn't as bright as my Canonet QL17, which I bought in very good condition.

 

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As I plan on using this camera a lot, any idea on whether I should have this repaired? Do I have to bring it exclusively to Leica, or can a good camera repair shop do this for me? How much am I expecting to pay for this (parts and labor)? By the way, I live in Thailand, but there's a Leica distributor here. Anyway, if it costs too much, I won't mind shooting with a 35mm lens since that's the only frameline I see.

[jim_shields]

Ron,

There are no 75mm frame lines on the M2, only 50, 90 and 35. What's

your camera's serial number by the way? It's a black M2?

Jim

[keith_nichols3]

I can't say what your repair will cost, but your camera needs a general going-over. And the rangefinder definitely needs cleaning and adjusting - you should not be limited to using only one lens. For your part, be sure the windows on the front of the camera are clean, although a dirty window is probably not the source of your rangefinder problem. Do not, however, entrust any repairs to unqualified persons.

[ron_gregorio]

Thanks Jim. I guess the 3rd frame would be a 90 and not a 75, but it

doesn't really matter because I can't see it. Yes the whole body is

black, and it's a little ugly. Some brass is already showing on the

edges and corners of the top and bottom plates. I don't know what

this camera went through but the mechanics still feel solid except

for the viewfinder problem that I mentioned above, which I can live

with. Initially, I would have preferred a chrome M, but the M3 that

the shop was selling at the same price as this one had a sticky film

advance lever, so I chose this. I actually don't mind having this

black one now since it looks less attractive to thieves when I'm

shooting at undesirable places. The serial number is "M2-1132225"

for your info. Anything special about black M2's?

 

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I also noticed that on this one, when I push the frameline lever, the

35mm frame doesn't disappear, and the 50 and 90 framelines would only

show when I push both the frameline lever and move the focusing cam

inside the lens mount. Does this indicate anything other than

general overhaul of the viewfinder? Would it be cheaper for me to

exchange this with the chrome M3 since that one has a good

viewfinder, but sticky advance lever? Again, any input would be

appreciated.

[john_collier]

Well the camera was made in 1965 and it is possible that it is a

genuine black paint model....maybe. This was the last year of a

significant number of black paint cameras (300). If it is a genuine

black paint camera, it would be worth somewhere in the

$3500US to $6000US range. The fact that the viewfinder is not

working well would detract from the price. At this point I would

consult with a Leica expert. The viewfinder should be brighter

than a Cannon QL and the framelines should only be in view one

at a time. It may be possible to repair the finder but probably not

in Thailand. Even if the M2 turns out not to be an original black

paint model, it is worth more than a chrome one. I will ask

around and see if I can find out how to identify an original black

paint camera.

 

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Cheers

[jim_shields]

1132225 born on August 18, 1965. Chrome. Sounds like a nice beater

anyway. Get it repaired.

[john_collier]

Production figures:

 

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8/18/65 � M2 Black �1130001 to1130300 � 300

8/18/65 � M2 � 1130301 to 1133000 � 2600

 

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These are the numbers from the Leica and you can see that your

serial number is outside the range for black cameras. The date

refers to when the numbers were allocated and is not an actual

production date. That does not mean it is not an original camera

as Leica serial number lists are only a guide at best. Still

looking...

 

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Cheers,

[andrew_schank]

There are over 20 individual glass surfaces that need to be cleaned

inside the finders, but there is also the possibility that the finder

has gone bad and needs replacing with a whole new unit from leica.

Bill Maxwell told me 2 or 3 out of 10 older M cameras with dim

finders can not be cleaned because the silvering on some surfaces

and/or the small prism has gone bad. I was lucky and my M3 cleaned up

100% and it was the best $200 I spend on my Leica system to have Bill

completely go through the camera and make it work like new again. Is

there any authorized Leica repair facilities in your country?

[john_collier]

Well because it is not in the official black paint list, it will not be

worth the big dollars; but, this does not mean it is not original.

There are documented black paint M2s that are not in the list

and, in the early seventies, Leica would do black paint

conversions on request. It is still worth significantly more than a

chrome model. My advice would be to fix the viewfinder if

possible and sell it to buy a used M6.

 

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Cheers

[ron_gregorio]

Thanks everyone for your replies. John and Jim, I really appreciate

your efforts and candor. I had to re-read your 1st reply a couple of

times to confirm that there wasn't an extra zero on the price

estimate. I also did some serious latenight research on the net on

this topic. Now, I feel better that the three-figure price I paid

for this camera wasn't as expensive as I thought, even if it's not an

original "black paint". My guess is that the previous owner had a

chrome version painted black, but I'm still hoping that maybe it's

one of those unlisted originals. Is there a way of telling the

original Leica black paints from the those repainted by 3rd parties?

Also, is the black paint list that you have the same as the list on

CameraQuest.com? Personally, I think the reason why Leica did not

make a lot of black paint M's is because they look ugly after years

of use even though I read somewhere that they're built the same as

the chromes.

 

Andrew, I'll check here in Bangkok if there's an authorized Leica

repair shop. In any case, could you email me Bill Maxwell's

address? I'm going to check how much it would cost to repair this

here and see if it will be worth trading it in for a used M6 before

or after the repair. Anyway, repaired or not, I'm just excited to

shoot with it already after I get my lens.

[john_collier]

The info on Stephen's site is straight from Leica so it is "the list".

The only way to tell for sure if it is a genuine black paint camera

would be to research its history. Not an easy task but the best

place to start would be finding out where the store that sold it to

you got it from. To Leica collectors, the brassy look of a worn

black paint camera is beautiful and it is the one area where a

well used brassy black paint camera is worth more than a mint

one! Strange but true.

 

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Cheers

[andrew_schank]

I seem to have misplaced Bill Maxwell's address. His phone number is

404-244-0095.

[david_kelly8]

Wouldn't a repaint would have a layer of chrome under the black, not

just brass? You could check by removing a tiny amount of black in a

hidden spot, for example under the baseplate latch, or perhaps by

temporarily removing the accessory shoe.

 

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The M4 was the last Leica built by hand-fitting each part, as

poposed to "go/no-go" fitting in all subsequent models. You can

certainly feel the difference. For this reason, and because the

rangefinder patch in the M6 can "flare out" -literally vanish- at

inconvenient moments, I think a good M4 is preferable unless you

really need that mete

[david_kelly8]

Sorry about those typos! Bill Maxwell is at Maxwell Precision Optics,

P.O. Box 33146, Decatur, GA 30033-014

[jim_shields]

You might not find chrome under the black paint. Apparently some

chrome cameras have the chrome stripped off before painting.

[ron_gregorio]

Thanks for Bill's address and tel. no. I'm still looking for a good

shop here.

 

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I didn't notice any chrome on the top and bottom plates. However, I

do notice a bit of silver metallic surface underneath the black paint

of the self-timer lever, rewind lever, and frameline lever. It's not

brass as the top and bottom plates.

[sergio_casillas]

The reason for your vannishing framelines lies in dust in the screen

made out of acetate (film basis) onto which framelines are printed

by negative process.Have an skilled repaiman clean it as well as all

cristal surfaces (very carfully). You will enjoy your M2, wheather

original black or not. Luck¡