5D; no on-board flash - inconvenient?

[steve torelli]

Savas,

If you are concerned about the lack of a pop-flash, and this is your first Canon DSLR, you may be better off with a 20D or the new 30D.I have a 20D and have used the on-board flash once or twice in a year. For me, it wouldn't be a reason to buy or not buy a given camera.

This a good thread though. I always enjoy Jim L's posts.Always to the point and entertaining, especially when prowling photo.net with a cold Corona after dinner. Good luck all.

[PuppyDigs]

"and I dont' think that any strong photographers would ever say that their built in flashes

are useful."

 

That's a silly statement. A good photographer uses whatever means possible to make a

telling imaging. Use a white book for fill, a foil reflector, side of a white building or a tiny

popup flash. It's just a tool albeit one of limited power. Know it limits and employ it with

intelligence and it will work well. With that said, my 10D has a popup and I rarely use it as

most of my lenses block it and it's too weak for everything except close fill. But it has

saved my bacon a few times so it isn't totally useless.

[mendel_leisk]

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this (just skimming), but I've read one impediment to putting a built-in flash on the 5D was the full frame sensor and it's need for a larger pentaprism, in short: there is less room to fit a built-in flash.

[steve_dunn2]

<cite>Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this (just skimming), but I've read one impediment to putting a built-in flash on the 5D was the full frame sensor and it's need for a larger pentaprism, in short: there is less room to fit a built-in flash.</cite>

 

<p>Compared to a 1.6-crop body, sure, but Canon produced lots of 35mm SLRs (i.e. full-frame, with an appropriately-sized pentamirror or pentaprism) with pop-up flash units. I owned two of them, an Elan II and an Elan 7E, so I know it's possible. Heck, some early-1990s EOS SLRs even managed to fit a <em>motorized zoom mechanism</em> into the pop-up flash.</p>

 

<p>I used the pop-up flash on my Elan II for a couple of years, until I bought a shoemount flash. I don't believe I ever used the pop-up flash again. When I replaced that body with an Elan 7E, I never used the pop-up flash for a real photo (I did use it a couple of times to see just how useless it was as an AF assist beam) in the 4-5 years or so I owned that body. I think I've used the pop-up flash on my 20D twice in the year or so I've owned the camera, and I certainly wouldn't miss it if I didn't have it.</p>

 

<p>An accessory flash is more powerful, more flexible in that it allows bounce flash, almost always eliminates red-eye, and doesn't get blocked by a large lens and/or a lens hood. I've never missed an opportunity due to there not being a flash around; my flash unit lives in the same camera bag as my camera, and I always have a spare set of Li batteries there in case I need to grab my camera without having time to charge up my NiMH.</p>

 

<p>If your motivation for choosing one camera over another is whether or not your sister will heckle you, then you're not looking for a camera; you're looking for a fashion accessory.</p>

[skip hansen]

To Jim larson: "...snobbish hooey..." Nice touch! You finally hit on an accurate description of some of the...well, snobbish hooey you find here...and I do mean 'snobbish'.

 

To Savas: I hope you are able to sort through all this...well, stuff. I use a Canon 20D right now. The on-board flash may help in well-lit, sunlight situations as a fill light. Use it indoors in low ligh and it makes your photos look like they came from a disposable camera (I think you can buy them for about $7.00). At 1600 ISO, (and an IS lens) a 20D (about $1300 or so) should suit your needs.

 

I doubt anyone in a blind 'taste test' could tell the difference between a full sensor and no full sensor on any given print comparison. Wait...I here the snobs stirring again!

 

Good luck.

[michaelkh]

"Has it been nettlesome to always be aware of where your separate flash unit is;"

 

I have no idea. I'm only commenting on your marvellous use of a fabulous word: nettlesome.

 

Bravo. :)

[erin.e]

One of the advantages of a good shoe mounted flash is that the head can be swivelled to get indirect fill lighting that does not cast hard shadows behind close subjects.

 

If you intend to become a proficent photographer, you will buy a dedicated shoe mount flash as a useful tool somewhere down the line, whether you buy a 30D or 5D so why not right at the start, along with a couple of lenses, and another camera bag to hold all this stuff?

 

Oh yes, the reason Nikon, Canon, etc are called camera systems is because there are plenty of useful items that are made to attach to whatever body you decide to buy and make it much more versatile than a fixed lens camera.

[andrew robertson]

Nice rant Jim. You had me laughing so hard I shot milk out my nose, AND I WASN'T EVEN

DRINKING ANY MILK!

[digitmstr]

>>The camera lacks the weather sealing,<<

 

So did my Bronica, Rolleiflex and Toyo view camera yet, I consider those rather PRO cameras :)

 

I think the photographers makes it PRO, not the other way around. And, any photographer who makes a living shooting ANY camera is a PRO photographer.

 

The 5D doesn't have a built-in flash for the same reason the afore mentioned cameras don't have one. IN addition, built-in flashes make the top of the camera weaker and add a source of possible breakage.

 

If the priority is for a built-in flash the 5D is NOT the camera for you. Very simple.

 

When I had my 10Ds I used the built-in flash exactly one time. So, for me it was a waste and I was all too happy to get a camera that doesn't have it.

 

If I wanted a camera for convenience I would use a P&S or at the most, a 350D which is small, has a built-in flash but, still uses a great imaging engine and sensor.

[edgreene]

An EOS 5D deserves an EOS hot-shoe flash. That said, my EOS A2 (<i>arguably the best <b>all-around</b> EOS body ever made</i>) has a pop-up flash. And despite what others say about built-in flashes on EOC bodies, mine, like all of them, is surprisingly poweful, and useful with all but the longest teles or short F/2.8 "L" lenses.<br><i>I've used my A2s in places where the use of a hot-shoe flash would be a serious PITA</i>.<p>That said, I never leave the house without a hot-shoe flash in my bag. Neither should you.

[savas_kyprianides]

In the six years of owning my E-10, I have not used the pop up flash more than maybe 10

times. When flash was required, I used the tilt and swivel hot shoe flash. My thanks to those

who commented on topic and did not register assumptions about my experience or lack

thereof. Nor those whose toes I might have stepped on or feathers ruffled with an innocent

inquiry.

[erin.e]

Well Savas, you set yourself up to get smacked around a bit and deserved what you got when you already knew the answer to the question you posed, as your E10 had a built in flash and you also had a shoe mounted dedicated one for it.

 

What would be different with an EOS SLR and built in flash or Dedicated unit?

No point taking the moral high ground when you set yourself up to be knocked down Savas!

 

 

You wasted the time of those who took your post as a valid question.

 

 

"I smell a troll, troll, de roll." Welcome to Photonet new member.

[savas_kyprianides]

That is a transparent excuse for things having gotten ugly. And it gets uglier still. I will

forgive you for your error in judgement.

[jim_larson1]

Savas;

 

I seems we have a number of high strung individuals on photo.net "Canon EOS forum" these days.

 

For any dSLR, there is general agreement in this thread that a hot shoe flash is a valuable accessory. In my mind, a hot shoe flash is more important than having "L" glass.

 

In regards to a pop-up. . I still maintain that, all else being equal, a camera *with* a pop up flash is superior to one *without* a popup flash.

 

But popup flash is only *one* feature of a camera. You should decide for yourself what features are -and are not- critical.

[ifeito]

Hi,

 

I don't contribute much to these boards but I do lurk quite a bit. However I think something hasn't been added here that's important.

 

The main use of flash in these days of digital photography (and variable ISO) is fill flash. Using fill flash during daytime is impossible with the sync speeds of 1/200 and 1/250 that we're getting with today's cameras. Specially if you're shooting people arond f2.8, if you even try to use the camera's flash the only thing you'll get are overexposed shots.

 

So, even though I own a lowly Rebel XT, my lowly 380EX Speedlight never leaves my bag.

 

I can't believe that Nikon users don't get high speed flash sync in their D50 and D70 cameras!

 

My 2 pesos...

 

Ignacio Féito

Mexico City

[jon_austin]

Pop-up flash is far from perfect, but sometimes it's all you need (like providing a little catchlight or fill in bright outdoor settings). While of limited use when compared to an external flash, it's just too handy in those rare occasions (for me) to buy a body without it.

 

And no, it doesn't compromise the ability to also provide a large, bright viewfinder.

 

The first full-frame dSLR I buy will have a pop-up flash, it'll be made by Canon, and it'll cost less than $2000. I expect to pick it up in a couple of years.

[martyn_k]

I have recently bought a 430EX flash unit. What camera should I buy to go with it? Considering a 5D - will it fit the bill? ;-)

Cheers

Martyn

[andrew robertson]

"according to DPreview, aside from image resolution (the 12mp thing), image quality is

nearly identical to the 20D/30D."

 

Jim, the same could be said about the 10D and the 1Ds II.

 

Fact is, the 5D is a 'pro grade' camera because it offers something that few others do - that

full frame sensor you so casually mention.

[w_t1]

you guys crack me up. I'm still using my orginal vivitar 283 that I bought in 1982 or so....on the F-1, A-2, 3, and now also on a G2 and 10D. It worked then, and it works now (now i have 3 283's)

[erin.e]

Quote "Jim Larson , feb 25, 2006; 10:23 a.m.

Savas;

I seems we have a number of high strung individuals on photo.net "Canon EOS forum" these days."

 

And some of us 'high strung individuals' where here a little while before you joined Jim ;-) Maybe we just don't like supercilious trolls

[edgreene]

Ignacio Feito: <i>The main use of flash in these days of digital photography (and variable ISO) is fill flash.</i><p>"Fill flash" has always been the only reason for flash. We oldtimers would have killed for TTL flash, even more so for automatic fill flash. And what does "Variable ISO" have to do with it (fill flash)?<p><i> Using fill flash during daytime is impossible with the sync speeds of 1/200 and 1/250 that we're getting with today's cameras.</i> <p>"Hrumph"! "Back in the days", we used 1/250th flash sync. If 1/250th sync was good enough for my 1986 T-90, 1/250th flash sync certainly will and does work today with my EOS 3 & EOS 1n and other EOS "1" style bodies.<p><i>Specially if you're shooting people arond f2.8, if you even try to use the camera's flash the only thing you'll get are overexposed shots.</i><p>I have no idea of where you got that totally erroneous information.<br>Here's a little EOS flash procedure 101:<br>Any <i>modern</i> EOS body, when used with an EOS flash (any), <i>exposes for the ambient light</i>, then uses <b>automatic</b> fill to properly balance the exposure (<i>the assumption being one has popped up the on-board flash or has an EOS hot-shoe EOS flash mounted and it is turned on</i>.)<p>High desert, Noon, model is facing away from the full sun: ideal time to turn on/pop-up your EOS flash.<br>Compose, focus-shoot, the 1/250th shutter goes off and the EOS flash automatically balances the exposure.<br>More EOS flash 101.<p><i>So, even though I own a lowly Rebel XT, my lowly 380EX Speedlight never leaves my bag.</i><p>"Lowly" Speedlite? Send that "Lowly" beast to me; please? I'll give it a nice home, even snuggle it down in a "lowly" "Canon" bag.<p>And if your "lowly" Rebel XT needs a home, send it along too. Both of them are not only EOS, they kick-a$$.<br>If your opinion of them held true across the board, that "lowly" XT wouldn't be the best selling DSLR going.<br>I know, you were just kidding around: right; right?<p><i>I can't believe that Nikon users don't get high speed flash sync in their D50 and D70 cameras</i>!<p>That takes E-TTL flash; right; right?<br> And Nikon doesn't have E-TTL flash-right? Question: or is it the Nikon models you named <i>can't</i> do high speed flash sync?<div></div>

[chemist_one]

It might be inconvenient to not have a popup flash, but if you give me a 5D I can live with it. I still have a 300v filmbody and I think the speedlight 420EX is the item which made me to make better pictures. That item improved my succesrate of 20% to 80% in low light conditions. I don't think that anything else except a decent photo course and lots of practice will do the same to my "photo skills". As stated before, if you can't live with a 5D without buildin flash this is not the camera for you (send it to me :D ).

[ifeito]

Ed,

 

Thanks for analyzing my post so thouroughly! I was almost hoping someone would, you can learn a lot having that done to you by someone with more experience.

 

First of all, no can do on sending my camera or flash to you. As you say, they may be low on the food chain that you read about on these forums, but for me they are killer pieces of equipment. I live in Mexico and very frequently see photojournalists and wedding photographers with less capable equipment than the one I carry. BTW, photography is a hobby for me, cannot justify spending too much money on something that's not feeding my family.

 

Lets continue. Being somewhat of a newbie, and talking to someone that may also be one (Savas), I was pointing out that using flash as the main means to light your subject shouldn't be done. Much better to crank up the ISO than to pop up the on-board flash. That's what I meant by "in these days of variable ISO". English is not my native language, sometimes it shows.

 

Now, regarding high speed sync (for using flash during exposures shorter than 1/250, option not provided with Nikon's D50 & D70), I use it most of the time for fill flash. You can read about hi-speed flash sync in Canon's old literature, it is actually interesting why it developed; in shutter speeds faster than the x-sync the whole frame isn't exposed at one time, so the flash sends multiple bursts that expose the stripes of frame one at a time).

 

Regarding daytime fill flash; is there something I'm doing wrong? When I'm shooting people outside during the day I set my camera on aperture priority (Av) and select a large aperture to throw the background out of focus. I notice some harsh shadows on my model's face and decide to pop up the on-board flash. What happens? My 1/2000 exposure suddenly becomes 1/200 and my shot comes out overexposed (only happened a couple of times before I realized I was doing something wrong). I guess if I use Program (P) mode the camera would automatically set the aperture, but using P I loose control over my background!

 

I noticed you posted a picture of Miss Kansas. I lived in KC for about a year in 1995, do you live there?

[nick_p.]

<p>I have a Canon EOS Rebel T3 DSLR and i NEVER use my flash(if i do, it's rare, VERY rare)</p>

<p>My plan when I get a 5D3 is to get a cheap speedlite flash just in case i can't go without a flash when I buy my 5D3</p>