travis2 Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 hi guys...I have asked this before. <p> M3 body always gives Black Streaks on pics (AND WHITE STREAKS ON NEGS) whenever I shoot in outdoor sea scenes. <p> I have no explanation for the problem. Indoor pics is OK. The technicians checked the shutter and he said everything was fine. The lab gave STREAKLESS pics when I use other camera bodies. So I'd guess it must be the M3. The shutter cloth seems really LEAKLESS when I checked it against the sun. <p> A lens problem? I dunno. I used a 50 cron which was fine on the M4P. <p> Here is a pic with that problem. Please look at the CIRCLED area for the streaks. It is always at the same corner in every problem pic. <p> <p> Please give any advice u may have. Thx <p> NB: The pic has been added geavy contrast so that u can see the streaks. In the actual print, it is VERY OBVIOUS. <p> <IMG SRC="http://www.photo.net/photodb/image-display?photo_id=750752&size=lg"></a> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl_yik1 Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 Is the steak continuous on the who neg strip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travis2 Posted May 10, 2002 Author Share Posted May 10, 2002 Karl, NO. <p> The streaks is random , but they are constrained within a frame. It seems to me the streaks are formed DURING EXPOSURE, because they are not continuous throughout the whole negative strip. <p> The streaks seems to look like cloth patterns on the shutter cloth if u look closely at yours. I just dunno how it got there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djphoto Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 I don't have an answer, but I do know that a white streak on a negative means less or no light reached that area, or else that the emulsion was partly or fully scraped away. Either of these would make a corresponding black streak on the print. If light were leaking through the shutter curtain, it would add exposure to the area receiving the light, thus making it blacker on the negative and lighter on the print. <p> Since the streaks always show up in the same area of the negative, my best guess would be that it's picking up some kind of reflection from within the camera body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy_samos1 Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 "Since the streaks always show up in the same area of the negative, my best guess would be that it's picking up some kind of reflection from within the camera body."<p>Hmmmmmm. Wouldn't reflections within the camera body have the same effect as a light leak in the shutter curtain, producing dark streaks on the negative? /r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_darnton1 Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 Looks like a dry or otherwise messed up shutter bearings to me (I think what you have is shaky shutter travel across the frame, showing up most obviously in flat tonal areas at high shutter speeds, where a bit of variation represents a greater percentage of the shutter speed). Time for a CLA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Smith Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 It is not the lens. I would have guessed processing, but if not that then it has to be the camera. Does it do this with slides too? Are they really black streaks?? It looks to me rather like uneven development. As others have said if it was light leaks/reflections then it would be white or lighter streaks on the prints. Are you REALLY sure it is not their minilab? If you eliminate all the obvious then you have to live with the result. I doubt it is the camera myself, whatever the lab say (they always tend to blame the camera/operator in my experience). I suggest you try some slide shots of a blue sky to see if you get it then. Robin Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travis2 Posted May 10, 2002 Author Share Posted May 10, 2002 Robin. The streaks are BLACK. <p> I have shot wth a Minolta SLR using the same lab, same scene. NO STREAKS. <p> It cannot be the lab. I have looked at other people's scenic pics from the same lab. NO STREAKS. <p> It has to be the M3 but I just can't explain this phenomenon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy_samos1 Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 "Looks like a dry or otherwise messed up shutter bearings to me (I think what you have is shaky shutter travel across the frame, showing up most obviously in flat tonal areas at high shutter speeds, where a bit of variation represents a greater percentage of the shutter speed)."<p>This is what I first thought also. But ... the streaks are going the wrong direction for an uneven shutter travel to have caused them. (unless, of course, this was a landscape format image cropped to portrait). Certainly, it *could* be the shutter curtain itself. This sort of problem could show up in this direction if the edge of the curtain weren't straight. <p>Doubt that's the problem though. That's the kind of thing you see in Russian swing lens cameras. <p>/r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_darnton1 Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 OK, Travis, is this a horizontal picture cropped to vertical, or no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
preston_merchant Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 A bad lot of film? Does it happen with color? You should be able to determine if something is scratching the emulsion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travis2 Posted May 10, 2002 Author Share Posted May 10, 2002 Michael...this is a vert pic, uncropped. The streaks occurs on the upper horizontal section OR aka the right vert section of the viewfinder. That is, the lower horizontal section OR aka the left vertical section of the FILM . <p> <p> Preston. Color and B&W of various brands. The self developed b&w however, seems less affected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy_samos1 Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 Travis -<p>Another question - is there <i>any</i> consistancy as to when it might happen? For instance - does it always/only happen when you're shooting with a small aperature (like - always at f8 & smaller)?<p>/r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travis2 Posted May 10, 2002 Author Share Posted May 10, 2002 Randy...I would hazard a guess that most of the problems occured during F8 and 1/500-1/1000 as would be needed in brightly lit sea scenes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy_samos1 Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 Given your description saying it was sea/sky scenes, the smaller aperature and higher shutter speeds would have been my guess on this.<p>Well now - Back to my earlier comment on Russian Swing lens cameras. They have a fairly common problem with a very similar streaking on them. This is caused by uneven machining on the slit mask within the cylander(read: shutter). Hard to believe this is such a common problem, given the Russian reputation for precision machining. <p>If the width of the shutter slit is not even, it can cause uneven exposure across a negative. Far more possible, and evident while using a higher shutter speed, where the variations in slit width are a much larger percentage of the slit width. This is the same reasoning that Michael used with shutter speed. Just that uneven shutter slit width could cause the problem in the direction you're seeing it.<p>But ... I still have say I can't believe this would be a problem with a Leica. But then ... I'm a <i>very</i> new Luser (just got my first M about 3 weeks ago).<p>/r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_yoder1 Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 If that was shot vertically I don't see how it could be a shutterproblem (uneven curtain shutters show problems the other directionbecause of the direction of the motion). It might be impression on theemulsion when it's withdrawn from the canister or someting similar,and especially if it's bulk-loaded it could be the loader. That lookslike roller damage from a processor though. It doesn't matter thatother rolls looked fine, if those rollers get dirty or sticky oruncooperative it can affect the film almost randomly (in mynewspapering experience). I'd be asking the lab about it. <p> That said, it could also be something leaving scratches or impressionson the emulsion from inside the camera, since that is the directionthe film goes and the pressure plate or something might be doing it... <p> enough rambling from me, I don't really know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy_samos1 Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 Uneven shutter travel speed and uneven slit width can both cause streaking - but they are 90 degress out from each other in how they manifest themselves. <p> Not saying that it's uneven shutters though. Just that it's one of the things that <i>could</i> cause streaks like that. <p> /r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travis2 Posted May 10, 2002 Author Share Posted May 10, 2002 uneven slit width : <p> Randy, what is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chansonbleu Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 Hi Travis, <p> Shoot a roll of B&W and send it to me. I will develop and contact it for you and I will check for streaks. I'll turn it around in a day and mail it back. This will at least eliminate lab problems. E-Mail me at home for my mailing address. <p> Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travis2 Posted May 10, 2002 Author Share Posted May 10, 2002 Steve, thats very noble of u. Im very grateful. <p> But Steve, I have recently traded back that M3 for a dual range and 3.5 elmar. Im very happy about the switch. <p> I just thought some folks here might have experience this problem. But as I can see, there could be many reasons behind this. Im pretty sure Lab is not the problem because the streaks were there when I developed the film myself, abeilt less often. <p> Thanks againg for the lovely gesture, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_darnton1 Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 uneven slit width : <p> Another version of what I was saying--anything which causes the curtains (which travel completely independently of each other) to wobble in speed as they cross the film makes the slit opening of the shutter vary as it passes across the film, causing over and under exposure in bands. This would be more visible at higher speeds because the curtains follow each other very closely, and a 1mm variation that doesn't mean much at 1/30 can mean 2X exposure difference in stripes across the film. <p> If you're not following--the shutter speed isn't determined by the speed of the shutter--first one shutt curtain goes across, showing the film, and then the second follows, at the same speed, covering it. At 1/50 (flash synch speed) the first curtain goes all the way across, and then the second starts--the flash fires right at that instant when the whole frame is visible. From there on, each doubling of shutter speed represents the second curtain following the second half as closely to the first. So at 1/100, the first curtain gets halfway across before the second follows; 1/200, 1/4 way, 1/400, 1/8 way, 1/800, 1/16 of the way. 1/16 of the 36mm film width is about 2mm--that's the width of the slit moving across the film to make the exposure, so a little wobble in the speed of one curtain can really mess things up in a way that wouldn't be noticed at slower speeds, calling for a CLA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy_samos1 Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 Travis -<p>You'll have to (actually, you don't <i>have</i> to do anything) forgive me, as I tried to point out, I'm a REAL new Luser - a recent SLR convert. So ... I don't know (yet) for sure if uneven slit width is a possiblity in the way a Leica shutter works.<>That said - Uneven Slit Width - The shutter "paints" the image onto the film by moving an opening (slit) in the shutter across the frame. In the case of the Leica, it's a vertical opening (slit) moving horizontally across the film. If there are physical aberation of some sort on one or both edges of the curtain forming the edge of the opening/slit, it <i>could</i> cause uneven exposure. It would completely depend on just what percentage of the actual shutter opening (exposure) were involved.<p>Things I don't know : How wide is the opening in the shutter during it's travel across the film in a Leica? - Is it even possible for a Leica shutter to have an uneven edge? - Why did they move the Simpsons to Sunday night?<p>/r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travis2 Posted May 10, 2002 Author Share Posted May 10, 2002 Michael, excellent description. But that doesn't explain the pattern of the streaks in my case, does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travis2 Posted May 10, 2002 Author Share Posted May 10, 2002 Horizontal shot uncropped. Same scene, about f8 1/1000. COntrast added to show circled streaks. <p> <IMG SRC="http://www.photo.net/photodb/image-display? photo_id=751048&size=lg"></a> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_darnton1 Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 Nope, but crummy roller developing sure does. I can't think of any other reason than the processing, myself. Any kind of physical pressure on the film, even if you could figure out something in the camera that could do it without scratching, would leave white streaks, not black ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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