Need Help here. Streaks on pic.

[travis2]

hi guys...I have asked this before.

 

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M3 body always gives Black Streaks on pics (AND WHITE STREAKS ON NEGS) whenever I shoot in outdoor sea scenes.

 

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I have no explanation for the problem. Indoor pics is OK. The technicians checked the shutter and he said everything was fine. The lab gave STREAKLESS pics when I use other camera bodies. So I'd guess it must be the M3. The shutter cloth seems really LEAKLESS when I checked it against the sun.

 

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A lens problem? I dunno. I used a 50 cron which was fine on the M4P.

 

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Here is a pic with that problem. Please look at the CIRCLED area for the streaks. It is always at the same corner in every problem pic.

 

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Please give any advice u may have. Thx

 

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NB: The pic has been added geavy contrast so that u can see the streaks. In the actual print, it is VERY OBVIOUS.

 

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[karl_yik1]

Is the steak continuous on the who neg strip?

[travis2]

Karl, NO.

 

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The streaks is random , but they are constrained within a frame. It

seems to me the streaks are formed DURING EXPOSURE, because they are

not continuous throughout the whole negative strip.

 

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The streaks seems to look like cloth patterns on the shutter cloth if

u look closely at yours. I just dunno how it got there.

[djphoto]

I don't have an answer, but I do know that a white streak on a

negative means less or no light reached that area, or else that the

emulsion was partly or fully scraped away. Either of these would make

a corresponding black streak on the print. If light were leaking

through the shutter curtain, it would add exposure to the area

receiving the light, thus making it blacker on the negative and

lighter on the print.

 

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Since the streaks always show up in the same area of the negative, my

best guess would be that it's picking up some kind of reflection from

within the camera body.

[randy_samos1]

"Since the streaks always show up in the same area of the negative,

my best guess would be that it's picking up some kind of reflection

from within the camera body."

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Hmmmmmm. Wouldn't reflections within the camera body have the same

effect as a light leak in the shutter curtain, producing dark streaks

on the negative?

 

/r

[michael_darnton1]

Looks like a dry or otherwise messed up shutter bearings to me (I

think what you have is shaky shutter travel across the frame, showing

up most obviously in flat tonal areas at high shutter speeds, where a

bit of variation represents a greater percentage of the shutter

speed). Time for a CLA.

[Robin Smith]

It is not the lens. I would have guessed processing, but if not that

then it has to be the camera. Does it do this with slides too? Are

they really black streaks?? It looks to me rather like uneven

development. As others have said if it was light leaks/reflections

then it would be white or lighter streaks on the prints. Are you

REALLY sure it is not their minilab? If you eliminate all the obvious

then you have to live with the result. I doubt it is the camera

myself, whatever the lab say (they always tend to blame the

camera/operator in my experience). I suggest you try some slide shots

of a blue sky to see if you get it then.

[travis2]

Robin. The streaks are BLACK.

 

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I have shot wth a Minolta SLR using the same lab, same scene. NO

STREAKS.

 

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It cannot be the lab. I have looked at other people's scenic pics

from the same lab. NO STREAKS.

 

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It has to be the M3 but I just can't explain this phenomenon.

[randy_samos1]

"Looks like a dry or otherwise messed up shutter bearings to me (I

think what you have is shaky shutter travel across the frame, showing

up most obviously in flat tonal areas at high shutter speeds, where a

bit of variation represents a greater percentage of the shutter

speed)."

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This is what I first thought also. But ... the streaks are going the

wrong direction for an uneven shutter travel to have caused them.

(unless, of course, this was a landscape format image cropped to

portrait). Certainly, it *could* be the shutter curtain itself. This

sort of problem could show up in this direction if the edge of the

curtain weren't straight.

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Doubt that's the problem though. That's the kind of thing you see in

Russian swing lens cameras.

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/r

[michael_darnton1]

OK, Travis, is this a horizontal picture cropped to vertical, or no?

[preston_merchant]

A bad lot of film? Does it happen with color? You should be able to

determine if something is scratching the emulsion.

[travis2]

Michael...this is a vert pic, uncropped. The streaks occurs on the

upper horizontal section OR aka the right vert section of the

viewfinder. That is, the lower horizontal section OR aka the left

vertical section of the FILM .

 

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Preston. Color and B&W of various brands. The self developed b&w

however, seems less affected.

[randy_samos1]

Travis -

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Another question - is there <i>any</i> consistancy as to when it

might happen? For instance - does it always/only happen when you're

shooting with a small aperature (like - always at f8 & smaller)?

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/r

[travis2]

Randy...I would hazard a guess that most of the problems occured

during F8 and 1/500-1/1000 as would be needed in brightly lit sea

scenes.

[randy_samos1]

Given your description saying it was sea/sky scenes, the smaller

aperature and higher shutter speeds would have been my guess on this.

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Well now - Back to my earlier comment on Russian Swing lens cameras.

They have a fairly common problem with a very similar streaking on

them. This is caused by uneven machining on the slit mask within the

cylander(read: shutter). Hard to believe this is such a common

problem, given the Russian reputation for precision machining.

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If the width of the shutter slit is not even, it can cause uneven

exposure across a negative. Far more possible, and evident while

using a higher shutter speed, where the variations in slit width are

a much larger percentage of the slit width. This is the same

reasoning that Michael used with shutter speed. Just that uneven

shutter slit width could cause the problem in the direction you're

seeing it.

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But ... I still have say I can't believe this would be a problem with

a Leica. But then ... I'm a <i>very</i> new Luser (just got my first

M about 3 weeks ago).

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/r

[dave_yoder1]

If that was shot vertically I don't see how it could be a shutter

problem (uneven curtain shutters show problems the other direction

because of the direction of the motion). It might be impression on the

emulsion when it's withdrawn from the canister or someting similar,

and especially if it's bulk-loaded it could be the loader. That looks

like roller damage from a processor though. It doesn't matter that

other rolls looked fine, if those rollers get dirty or sticky or

uncooperative it can affect the film almost randomly (in my

newspapering experience). I'd be asking the lab about it.

 

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That said, it could also be something leaving scratches or impressions

on the emulsion from inside the camera, since that is the direction

the film goes and the pressure plate or something might be doing it...

 

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enough rambling from me, I don't really know.

[randy_samos1]

Uneven shutter travel speed and uneven slit width can both cause

streaking - but they are 90 degress out from each other in how they

manifest themselves.

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Not saying that it's uneven shutters though. Just that it's one of

the things that <i>could</i> cause streaks like that.

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/r

[travis2]

uneven slit width :

 

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Randy, what is that?

[chansonbleu]

Hi Travis,

 

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Shoot a roll of B&W and send it to me. I will develop and contact

it for you and I will check for streaks. I'll turn it around in a day

and mail it back. This will at least eliminate lab problems. E-Mail

me at home for my mailing address.

 

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Regards

Steve

[travis2]

Steve, thats very noble of u. Im very grateful.

 

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But Steve, I have recently traded back that M3 for a dual range and

3.5 elmar. Im very happy about the switch.

 

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I just thought some folks here might have experience this problem.

But as I can see, there could be many reasons behind this. Im pretty

sure Lab is not the problem because the streaks were there when I

developed the film myself, abeilt less often.

 

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Thanks againg for the lovely gesture, Steve.

[michael_darnton1]

uneven slit width :

 

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Another version of what I was saying--anything which causes the

curtains (which travel completely independently of each other) to

wobble in speed as they cross the film makes the slit opening of the

shutter vary as it passes across the film, causing over and under

exposure in bands. This would be more visible at higher speeds

because the curtains follow each other very closely, and a 1mm

variation that doesn't mean much at 1/30 can mean 2X exposure

difference in stripes across the film.

 

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If you're not following--the shutter speed isn't determined by the

speed of the shutter--first one shutt curtain goes across, showing

the film, and then the second follows, at the same speed, covering

it. At 1/50 (flash synch speed) the first curtain goes all the way

across, and then the second starts--the flash fires right at that

instant when the whole frame is visible. From there on, each doubling

of shutter speed represents the second curtain following the second

half as closely to the first. So at 1/100, the first curtain gets

halfway across before the second follows; 1/200, 1/4 way, 1/400, 1/8

way, 1/800, 1/16 of the way. 1/16 of the 36mm film width is about 2mm-

-that's the width of the slit moving across the film to make the

exposure, so a little wobble in the speed of one curtain can really

mess things up in a way that wouldn't be noticed at slower speeds,

calling for a CLA.

[randy_samos1]

Travis -

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You'll have to (actually, you don't <i>have</i> to do anything)

forgive me, as I tried to point out, I'm a REAL new Luser - a recent

SLR convert. So ... I don't know (yet) for sure if uneven slit width

is a possiblity in the way a Leica shutter works.

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That said - Uneven Slit Width - The shutter "paints" the image onto

the film by moving an opening (slit) in the shutter across the frame.

In the case of the Leica, it's a vertical opening (slit) moving

horizontally across the film. If there are physical aberation of some

sort on one or both edges of the curtain forming the edge of the

opening/slit, it <i>could</i> cause uneven exposure. It would

completely depend on just what percentage of the actual shutter

opening (exposure) were involved.

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Things I don't know : How wide is the opening in the shutter during

it's travel across the film in a Leica? - Is it even possible for a

Leica shutter to have an uneven edge? - Why did they move the

Simpsons to Sunday night?

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/r

[travis2]

Michael, excellent description. But that doesn't explain the pattern

of the streaks in my case, does it?

[travis2]

Horizontal shot uncropped. Same scene, about f8 1/1000. COntrast

added to show circled streaks.

 

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[michael_darnton1]

Nope, but crummy roller developing sure does. I can't think of any

other reason than the processing, myself. Any kind of physical

pressure on the film, even if you could figure out something in the

camera that could do it without scratching, would leave white

streaks, not black ones.