When did Leica become a luxury item?

[preston_merchant]

Greetings.

 

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At what point in the history of photojournalism did a Leica RF become a luxury item?

 

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When the early Magnum folks, threadbare socialists all, used them, they were considered small, hand cameras, useful for a certain type of spontaneous photography and reportage (along with Contaxes and other brands). When did Leica cameras go from being the necessary implements of starving journalists/artists to become durable goods, accessible only to those with credit cards or trust funds?

 

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I'm interested not so much in how economies have changed but in the way the cameras have been perceived. I do understand that the current demand for them does stem from their illustrious history on the front lines. When did they get their halos?

 

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Thanks.

 

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Preston

[bobtodrick]

Here are some interesting prices taken from a 1958 cataloque from a

major Canadian photo dealer. M3 w/50mm Summicron - $299.00. IIIg

with 50mm Summicron - $160.00. AsahiFlex (grandfather of the Pentax

K1000) with 50mm F2 - $125.00. So a Pentax SLR in 1958 was only 25%

cheaper than a IIIg and 1/2 the price of an M3, all with similar

lenses. Yet even the topline Pentax today (MZ-S) with lens is 1/4 the

price of an M6. Leica has definitely gotten pricier.....

[stephen_dominick1]

You want a Leica M ? thats the price of admission, take it or leave

it. And, don't compare Pentax pricing with Leica. Would one compare

Mercedes prices with those of Chevrolet? You only get what you pay

for!!

[jay_.]

In 1970 my M4 cost within a few dollars of my Nikon FTn. A new M6TTL

today streets out about the same price as a new Nikon F5. The

differences are 1)in 1970 the "entry level" Nikon, the Nikkormat, was

roughly half the cost of the flagship, but today you can get an n65

for about 1/6 the cost of an F5; 2)The 1970 Nikon had TTL metering

but otherwise were similar in features to the M4 (SLR vs rangefinder

nonwithstanding), yet today the F5 is basically a powerful computer

with a lensmount while the M6TTL has barely evolved from the M4. So

the Leica isn't so much a luxury item by virtue of its cost, but

rather by virtue of its cost relative to its level of sophistication.

[tom_hipple]

the cost of skilled labor has risen faster than the general rate of

inflation.....

Leica makes it's camara using very highly skilled people and very

high quality conponets at every step of the prosses..

the resaule is you get a camara that with proper care and matetenance

will be able to be use by your grand child when she goes to Mars for

a high school class trip...

[john_collier5]

Leicas have never been inexpensive or even "reasonably" priced.

They always have been difficult for an amatuer to justify. Leica

had a huge hill to climb when in the twenties they introduced a

camera system based on such a small negative. Their

advertising at the time was full of testimonials about the quality

and the new found spontineity of the resulting photographs. Not

much has really changed since then.

[giles_poilu]

To follow up John's comments here is a superb little piece written by

Ivor Mantale in the 2nd June 2001 issue of Amateur Photographer. (I

have very quickly photographed it with a Fuji digital - very sorry

about the quality!)<p>

<center>

<img src="http://www.monpoilu.icom43.net/leica text.JPG">

</center>

[mike dixon]

Just to keep things in perspective: There are probably more Nikon F5s

and Canon EOS1s (whatever the current version is) out there that are

"luxury items" (as opposed to professionally-used tools) than there

are M6s filling that role. Even Nikon makes its share of special

edition collectible cameras.

[seth_honeyman1]

The Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis has a neat little current

dollar converter on its web site. My memory is that I paid $288 for

an M3 in 1962 (no, I don't still have it and I wish I did).

According to the Fed, the current dollar equivalent of that $288 is

$1,697, almost the exact cost of a new M6.

[john_fleetwood]

In the early days of photography, a camera was a serious tool, made

by craftsmen for professionals. Now, cameras are made to be sold

to "consumers."

[chris_timotheou1]

Seth - I wish I'd paid $1,697 or thereabouts for a new M6! Here in

the UK a new body is about 1,700 British Pounds (inc. Value Added Tax

at 17.5%) which works out to - and I don't have a calculator at hand -

approximately $3,000! Do you include any tax on the $1,697?

[giles_poilu]

Chris, that's list price but most Leica dealers will sell you one for

around £1550 (US $2250) - still a lot more than US dealers will

charge however!

[Robin Smith]

As others have said the Leica has always been very expensive. All that

has happened is that "consumer level" cameras have come down in price.

In the 70s to own a Japanese SLR (Nikon, Canon) was not cheap and

ownersnhip conferred on you the status of a "serious" photographer,

now they are a dime a dozen.

[nesrani]

>> In the early days of photography, a camera was a serious tool,

made by craftsmen for professionals. Now, cameras are made to be sold

to "consumers."

 

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Hmm... Is that really true? Surely amateurs have always made up the

bulk of the equipment market (maybe not for Sinars, I suppose). I

suspect the amateur market for Leicas has always been larger than the

pro market, especially since the introduction of system SLR's.

 

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That Leicas are now luxury items is pretty indisputable, although

some pros still use them (mostly as an alternative to their main

SLR/digital gear for special applications). I don't think many pros

would use _only_ Leicas, though. Depends on what you do.

 

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Thank god for the consumer market. It drives nearly all innovation

(as in most industrial sectors) and makes a vast array of choices

available to us.

[andrew n.bra hrefhttp]

Here in Australia M6 bodies sell new for @ $AUD 3800, yet the average

yearly wage is roughly numerically identical to that in the USA.

Meaning Leicas here cost roughly twice what they do in the US.<P>

 

Mind you, this isn't as bad as it was in the early 1980s. Back then, a

new M4-P would cost $AUD 4500 (in 1981 dollars!) - a small fortune.

Part of the problem back then was a 20% (which went up to 32%!) luxury

tax applied to all cameras and photo equipment.<P>

 

These cost disparities go a long way to explain why you can walk around

Sydney all day and not see a single M or R. :?(

[john_fleetwood]

Rob, you're probably right about amateurs always making up the bulk

of the market for camera makers. It's just relatively recently that

every man, woman, and child is expected to buy a camera. How many of

those "consumers" (God, I hate being called that) are going to put

more than a few rolls of film through their new cameras?

[MTC Photography]

After Hermes bought a block of LCA shares

 

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http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0046gB

[seth_honeyman1]

Chris - Leica USA is running a $200 rebate offer currently.

Tamarkin-New York is selling the M6 TTL at $1,995 - so with the $200

rebate, cost is brought down to $1,795. There is no tax for buyers

who live outside New York State and have the item shipped to them.

Tamarkin is an authorized dealer, so I assume those are straight-up

official prices.

[msitaraman]

"In the early days of photography, a camera was a serious tool, made

by craftsmen for professionals. Now, cameras are made to be sold

to "consumers."

 

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You only need to go to a flea market to see the flimsy pressed tin

junk that passed off to consumers as cameras in the era of the Box

camera. c1900 and after.

 

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By comparision, today's $250 Rebel 2000 (or whatever) or a $89 Stylus

Epic offers vastly superior capability and reliability. Optically,

mechanically, photographically.

[andy_piper2]

During Leica's financial crisis of the 1970's.

 

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The M virtually disappeared in 1975. By the time it came back as the

M4-2 in 1977, the collectors had swung into full gear. Collecting

peaked during the Japanese economic boom (and eventual bubble) in the

mid-1980s. And while collectors weren't driving up new prices directly,

by siphoning off the used cameras they kept used prices very high,

which reflected in new prices (AND Leica's advertising!)

 

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And even new cameras were rare - M4-2 production ran about 3000-5000

per year over its lifetime. And rarity also breeds high prices. Leica

had become a "boutique" company long before Hermes got involved.

 

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Having seen this post I did a little spot research today while looking

for something else in early 1980s photo mags. In 1981 I had to look

through 6 issues to find ANY new Leica advertised mail-order. The price

was $745 for an M4-2, and $400 for a 50 'cron. The price for a Canon F-

1 WITH 50 f/1.4 was $489.00. (FWIW an R3 body-only was $850!) Obviously

Leica had vanished off the "mass market" radar scope during that period

in the wilderness.

 

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Leicas have always had some kind of halo. It dimmed in the 60s as the

SLR made its impact on the scene - revived a little as collectors

started jumped in and photojournalism began to follow new paths after

the death of LIFE and LOOK in the 70s - dimmed again as automation drew

everyone's attention in the 80s - and now is gleaming brightly once

more as the sole maker of solid metal mechanisms in a sea of plastic

electronica.

 

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FWIW - Nikon duplicated its 1960 S3 RF camera recently. It costs $5000

and Nikon is losing money on the deal - because it's an even lower

production run than the Leica. The Leica M is probably about as cheap

now as it has ever been - in constant dollars.

[eliot]

Yes. Leica prices were driven up by the large demand from the far

east, particularly Japan, Thailand, etc. and by rising demand from

third world countries (believe it or not!). The long Asian recession

coupled with the more recent economic down-turn in the USA and

elsewhere have conspired to reduce Leica prices (used and even new)

to as low as it has been in a long time. Collectors are much more

cautious about what they buy when the economic outlook is uncertain.

 

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Believe me, the last time you could get a near new Leica M6 for $1250

was in the 1980s. I have already seen mint/near new 24/2.8 Elmarit

lenses for $1250. When this lens was introduced not too many years

ago it was $ 2500 with USA and $ 150 less without warranty. The

various late generation pre-ASPH lenses are quite inexpensive by

Leica standards.

 

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Take advantage of this situation if there are items you desire, since

I expect prices will start going back up at some time in the near

future.

[msitaraman]

Andy, $745 in 1981 is the equal of about $1453 today, according to

the U.S. Government handy little (and official) BLS inflation

calculator at http://www.bls.gov/cpi/home.htm.

 

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So it looks like Leica M prices have held steady, more or less,

within a few hundred dollars, in the two decades since. But you get a

meter for your money now.

[msitaraman]

"When the early Magnum folks, threadbare socialists all..."

 

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Nice and romantic legend, but it may not be accurate, Preston.

 

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Henri Cartier-Bresson is the son and heir of a wealthy French

industrial family, David Seymour "Chim" was the son of a very

successful publishing magnate, George Rodgers was middle-class and a

Merchant Navy officer, and Robert Capa was the child of tailors (and

so definitely not threadbare, even if possibly poor!).

 

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I don't know if any of them were socialist in their politics, though

some of them did cover the socialist side of the Spanish Civil War.

 

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I don't know anything Bill Vandivert's other than that he was a big

time LIFE photographer.

[kumba]

New M6TTL Y180,000=$1550, September, 2001 at Lemon Camera in Tokyo.

[MTC Photography]

I don't think Leica camera is a luxury item, it is only high end

product

<p> There are many high end Nikon /Canon fast zoom lenses are quite

expensive too.

<p> A product becomes luxury item only when it can fetch a prices

several time above other similar Japanese products.