michael_beckmann Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Agfa Photo is going to be liquidated. There is hardly any hope for the company now. It was in the news tonight. The factories are still operating at full speed, but they are going to use up their raw materials and then shut down, because they have no cash for new materials. Perhaps some parts of the company are going to be sold off. It was reported that Fuji has shown interest in Agfa's lab equipment business. I am still wondering where those 372 million Euros in cash went, that were reposted missing in May. They played an important role in the company's insolvency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
25asa Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Though I don't use Agfa much, its still sad news. The lab I use uses their B&W papers. I guess they're going to have to find another source now. Their Ultra 100 film wasn't bad either. If Fuji does take over the lab business, I wonder if they will keep the lines seperate from the Frontier business. That or use the Agfa technology on the Frontiers. I guess the days of APX are over. Long live Ebay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_beckmann Posted October 19, 2005 Author Share Posted October 19, 2005 Regarding the niche products (black/white photo paper, chemicals and perhaps film), I would not be too surprised if someone actually picked that up. The news today was that the attempt to rescue the company as a whole has failed, so let's wait and see what happens to its individual business units and/or product lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_beckmann Posted October 19, 2005 Author Share Posted October 19, 2005 I might add that everybody (even the news) is parroting that Agfa's demise is due to the shrinking film business. While this is certainly a factor (film is not their only product), it should be remembered that at the point when AgfaPhoto was sold off, it had been reported that the financial outlook was excellent. A few months later, the company was reported to be insolvent, and that 372 million Euros in cash were missing. That's almost half a billion dollars! Even a company as big as Agfa can't burn that much money in such a short amount of time. So I am wondering if this was some sort of locust thing. An investor that carries away financial reserves of a company, then kills it to save himself from the company's creditors. This is just a suspicion. If it was so, then it was well crafted. Another icon of German industry is history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
25asa Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 I wonder if Fuji would take on the film and paper section as well. The B&W films at least are worth saving, as is the B&W papers. I guess we'll have to see. I called my lab and they have no idea what they'll switch to, but its only for proofs regardless. I guess we'll wait and see what happens to AgfaPhoto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
25asa Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 "Another icon of German industry is history" This reminds me what happened to Thorens turntables. The company went bankrupt, but later emerged from it to be running again. Thorens had been around for well over a hundred years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_beckmann Posted October 19, 2005 Author Share Posted October 19, 2005 Scott, the Thorens company was liquidated, and afaik the new Thorens shares nothing with it except the name and that they make turntables. There won't be a new Agfa. Making film and photo paper is a bit more high tech than making a circular iron mounted on a wooden box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
25asa Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 http://www.worldofphoto.com/meldung.htm$N18223 Here's a link above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grinder Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 When you start readng up on this you find out the upper managment are tring to force the break up to sell the name for 20 mil euro and each division seperatly. It appers that it is just another case of corprate greed and book cooking as there financial outlook was looking rather good and where excected to emerge from bankruptcy in the spring then nearly 400 million Euros went missing and they tanked. I hope they contunue making film and chemicals and I think there D-labs where actully making money. Everyone keep us up to date with good info you find out. Thanks, Grinder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beau 1664876222 Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 It is a shame. I would say the old-formula Portriga Rapid paper and APX 25 film are among the handful of greatest photo products ever made, and yet both were discontinued awhile ago. I wish somebody would buy the recipes and start making those products again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beau 1664876222 Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 I just thought of something -- what about Rodinal? Isn't the recipe for that public domain? I hope somebody continues to market it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_divenuti Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Michael, I don't know the reason why the 372 million Euro disappeared. But we do know a couple things: 1) Agfa-Gevaert AG could not find a buyer for it's analog photo division. 2) Agfa-Gevaert AG would have faced substantial charges had they laid off the staff of the analog photo division. 3) AgfaPhoto was the result of an internal management buyout that was leveraged by Agfa-Gevaert AG. Given the above, it's not hard to infer that AgfaPhoto came about because Agfa-Gevaert AG didn't want to be faced with the sort of severance costs that German law would have enforced. In other words, pay a bit over the long-term to defray a large short-term financial obligation. As I understand it, some of these laws have been relaxed. I've also been told that Agfa-Gevaert AG has been the target of hedge fund investors of late. Perhaps some sleight of hand took place. According to the following article - there is little hope for AgfaPhoto's film and paper units. http://www.worldofphoto.com/meldung.htm$N18223 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
25asa Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 I think J&C Photo sells R09 which is an older version of Rodinal. Its too bad Fuji could not buy up the recipes of Agfa's film business. I don't see Ilford being able to. Kodak- well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_divenuti Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Why would Fuji, Kodak, or Ilford buy Agfa recipes? Doubtless they believe their existing offerings are already superior. They're probably going to inherit most of Agfa's market anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sander_vesik Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Its interesting that they prefer the liquidation to the Photo Me offer - whatever it contained - for the film and paper business. Sad really aswell, it looked like a way to have the film and paper production continue, even if in a reduced manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
25asa Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Originally posted on APUG.ORG: Quote: Originally Posted by rduraoc "And I was really starting to like Agfa papers. And using a lot of APX100... Dancqu: Fuji is interested. Besides, Agfa holds the patents for the new technology high speed film emulsions. Perhaps we will see something come of it. Agfa has just been sitting on it. Dan " I find it interesting that Fuji would buy the technology from Agfa if others on here say Agfa has nothing to offer. I've heard of this technology before and wondered what ever came of it. I thought maybe the new tech films from Fuji and Kodak incorporated some of this technology. Regardless I have not read anything that seems to indicate Fuji wants to buy Agfas film tech, but only its lab machine division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_piper2 Posted October 20, 2005 Share Posted October 20, 2005 "Making film and photo paper is a bit more high tech than making a circular iron mounted on a wooden box..." Actually, Kodak introduced film-loaded cameras in 1888, and the first turntable phonograph was not introduced until 1892 - so silver-haloid film is at least 4 years LESS advanced than turntable technology. I do keep hearing that film is just too high-tech for a niche manufacturer to handle - and I don't buy it. Color film, probably. But plain 'ol silver/gelatin has been coated on stuff since before 1860 - and even coated "in the wild" by wet plate photographers in the American West. 35mm film (which requires a bit more precision due to the extra enlargement required) was being produced industrially (for movies) before 1915 (i.e., within the same technological envelope as Stanley Steamer and Ford Model "T" autos, and the Wright Flyer airplane). I agree with you, Michael, about the 372 mega-euros. 8^) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted October 20, 2005 Share Posted October 20, 2005 Sad news indeed. I've been shooting B&W for less then 10 years and it's really only been the last couple years since I learned to develop and print that I bought a used RZ67 and really started to enjoy it all. Now with Kodak looking like they're about to go belly up and now this news with Agfa I find it very difficult to remain optimistic about traditional photography being around for too much longer. It looks like Ilford may be the last man standing but with only a few choices of film, papers, and developers and at probably sky high prices I may have to make some tough choices. I think we all may have to. I was thinking of adding another lens to my RZ kit but maybe I'd be better off setting that money aside for an eventual digital camera and inkjet printer puchase instead. Sigh! Well, it was fun while it lasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reuben_c Posted October 20, 2005 Share Posted October 20, 2005 "Making film and photo paper is a bit more high tech than making a circular iron mounted on a wooden box." Not much! Stretch that "cirular iron" into a drum, turn it sideways, fill the "wooden box" with liquid emulsion, and there ya go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying_tiger Posted October 20, 2005 Share Posted October 20, 2005 Marc, I can understand how you feel about this sad news. Like you, I started this hobby 4-5 years ago and just picked up B&W processing at home and printing in a darkroom class half a year ago. Even with the proliferation of digitals, I don't have plan to convert to DSLR in the next 5 years. I just love the looks of films - so many choices - C41, E6, B&W print and slide. I'm pretty sure if films users like you begin to panic by selling off their RZs, etc and convert to digital, film manufactuerers such as Kodak, Fuji will soon follow Agfa. Why don't we just continue to shoot films (provided you still like film)? As long as there is a market there and there are profits to go after, Kodak, Fuji, Ilford and other smaller players will continue to produce films. I don't think Digital will NOT take over the whole film market because the follow of digital work really "sucks" and is no fun for film shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jv1 Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 Does this mean no more Agfa paper, and no more chemicals as well? ie Rodinal will be gone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew_pike1 Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 Too bad-this is definately the end of Scala. This may turn out to be the photo community's Enron-it will be interesting to find out what happened to all that money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_m Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 The problem with Agfa film is you never find anyone who sold it! Obviously, their marketing was a DISASTER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grinder Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 Photo me is stll tring to buy all of agfa photo Read http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx/2005/10/20/afx2288225.html They say there where some misunderstandings about the offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martian bachelor Posted October 25, 2005 Share Posted October 25, 2005 > The problem with Agfa film is you never find anyone who sold it!<BR> > Obviously, their marketing was a DISASTER.<P> Agreed. I've been a fan of AgfaChrome 50 (E-6) in its various versions for a long time and could never understand why it was virtually impossible to find - always a special order type thing.<P> But then I think RC Cola is better than Coke or Pepsi, too...<P> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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