Is R.Frank Swiss or American artist

[daniel_ob]

Is Robert Frank Swiss or American artist.

How someone should define what is an American artist in these days of

mixing people from all over the planet.

If one ask me that question I will be left drop mouth opened. There

is here in Canada some university (in Otawa) teacher that say

Canadian artist is only native (she means born in Canada)�. Never had

something like that on my main.

As I know many artists moved from Paris and rest of Europe to NYC

just before Sec.WW and it is how NYC became center of Universe.

[beeman458]

"teacher that say Canadian artist is only native (she means born in Canada)?"

 

Some people have yet to come to grips with the "normal" migratory behavior of the human element and how this behavior has impacted nationalities.

 

Tell your instructor, there is no such thing as native to the North, Central and Southern land masses known as the America's as there's only the original immigrant from the Asian continent coming to North America during last Great Ice Age, crossing the Bering Straights some twelve to fifteen thousand years ago.

 

Denial is a terrible thing to waste:)

[daniel_ob]

Fortunately she is not my teacher or I will quit that "school". The definition is spreading through her book on Canadian artist, and came as a part of reaction on Swarkowski's comment on Canadian art and culture, around 2000 in Montreal.

 

So what you think about Frank.

[vdp]

What did Robert Frank consider himself? If he was born in Switzerland and came here with his parents at the age of 12 then he could be considered an American. However, if he established himself as a photographer in his country of birth and then moved to the USA he might consider himself Swiss. I have seen listings that claimed Igor Stravinski was an American composer but to me he was clearly Russian.

[vdp]

I just looked Robert Frank up on the computer. He was born in Switzerland in 1924 and came to the USA in 1947. He moved to Nova Scotia in 1969 and travels back and forth between Canada and Bleecker Street, Greenwich Village, New York City, USA in these past years. So I guess this makes him a citizen of the world. It still comes down to what he feels he is.

[beeman458]

"So what you think about Frank."

 

The saying goes: "Home is where the heart is." Where did Robert have his heart?

 

Not ducking the question, I would say that it's up to Robert Frank to answer that question, in real terms, all and all considering.

 

Maybe this link can provide some insight as to an answer to your question.

 

http://photography.about.com/library/weekly/aa070300a.htm

 

Born 1924, raised, trained and became a photographer, came to New York in 1947, went back to Europe in 1951, returned to New York in 1953 and in 1955 he traveled the American roads.

 

I'd say it's a safe bet to say he was a traveling photographer from Switzerland at that time and point as his time, in real terms, when compared to his life's framework, was minimal at best.

 

http://www.yale.edu/amstud/r66/fr1.html

[beeman458]

"...as his time, in real terms, when compared to his life's framework, was minimal at best."

 

That's "...as his time in the U.S......"

[nozar_kishi]

Einstein is quoted to have said, at the time of his speech when accepting the Physics Nobel Prize, that: "Germany has referred to me as a Jew, and the US, as a German; now, Germany claims that I am a German, and the US, that, I belong to the world".

[elliot_n]

He's an American artist.

[beeman458]

"He's an American artist."

 

What makes him an American artist?

 

If he moved to France, would France consider him a French artist or would the French consider him a Swiss artist, who lived in America for awhile that happen to recently move to France? :)

[elliot_n]

'What makes him an American artist?'

 

A while back I saw a documentary about him, and he seemed American.

 

He sounds American, he lives in America, he's spent most of his life living in America, his

wife and children are American, most of his work is shot in America (and is about

America).

 

I assume he's an American citizen.

 

But he's European, too, of course!

[beeman458]

I always like to read word uttered by the artist in question as opposed to what others have to say on their stead.

 

This article doesn't address the issue but you do get a few words uttered by Robert himself. And too me this is a good thing:)

 

Hope you enjoy the read as much as I did.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/features/story/0,11710,1334509,00.html#article_continue

[robert x]

To wear a beaureaucratic hat, I think the answer must be "What passport did he travel on?".

 

Swiss passports are pretty good I believe, and I would be loathe to give mine up had I one.

 

Bill Brandt was German, but lived in England and is claimed as a British photographer.

 

Robert Capa was Hungarian, and had all sorts of problems because of it during WWII, not being recognised by the Hungarian government.

 

Helmut Newton was German, but jewish and forced to flee by the Nazis.

 

I never realised Franck was Swiss, and I always think of him as American, as I think of Brandt as British.

 

I suppose as most of what he is remembered for is American, and indeed much of America is seen through his photographs, we can consider him an American photographer, but maybe this needs a codecil adding that he was perhaps an American photographer, but a Swiss national ?

[robert x]

Thomas - your link answers it in the very first paragraph ! :-<p><i>'Robert Frank, Swiss, unobtrusive, nice,' wrote Kerouac in his now famous introduction to Frank's collection The Americans</i>

[daniel_ob]

The point is that Frank spent "short" time in US and his work on Americans become the benchmark at The Museum of Art at Washington State. True it is all only about Americans. How he so quickly realized whole American culture in the time of -no- comunications. It is not benchmark in Swiss nor in Canadian art but US. Can anyone not knowing bacground of nation, history, culture,... make so good work about the same that become nothing less then a benchmark in photo art of the country. I think that historian at first must say yes he knew our history and our problems and our culture before they proclaim him as American,a guy that (again) knows all that thinks, and just after that he can be a benchmark. Otherwise it is all about unoknown things. He must be "American", he have to know America and Americans to be able to make it all. What he like to be, or what is in his hart, is onother question. In this text American I mean not one carry Am. passport but one that knows America and people there.

 

And also his work was rejected in US for some political reasons, and is printed in France. Just after some time it is accepted. Is it enough for one to capture a forin nation through the lens, knowing about the same people just enough for the job, to became a hero of the same nation. I think yes, it is enough. And even if he remained in his native Swiss and did the same work on Swiss people we will never hear for R. Frank, and why he would make such work on Swiss people.

[robert x]

But Daniel, many people may know America and its people but this does not make them American.

 

Lawrence of Arabia was still British at the end of the day, no matter how native he may have turned.

[daniel_ob]

Robert, that was in my main also, and I think it is true. There is some point in Frank case that made him an American artist. I also do not think that anyone that move to e.g. US can be US artist just because he is -NOW- there. Is Franks majority art work conected with US culture... Is that point need and enough or some more have to be added. Not everyone that come to US can be -US- artist. So who can. The targer is not US but artists anywhere. Kertesz comes on main. His majority art work comes from Paris, but (not sure) he is US artist. There is some point I cannot figure out. Or photographers artist are nationless, which I doubt.

[eugene_scherba]

Ans now comes the sixty-four thousand dollar question: Why is this important?

[daniel_ob]

Eugene, should we start explaining importance of all questions in this site. Do you know what is importance of the whole planet Earth. What different will be if it never existed...

[eugene_scherba]

My question was relative, Daniel, not absolute. I asked: relative to

what Frank's photographs were and what impact they had, is it

important whether he was a Swiss

or an American artist?

[philip_oxenstein]

I had the pleasure to be invited to a screening of a documentary about Robert Frank shown at this year's Tribeca Film Festival, "Leaving Home, Coming Home". It was quite good. The documentary is a few years old, but you will not be able to find it because the agreemment the film's director made with Frank (in order to win Frank's particpation) was to limit screenings to two per year world-wide. The director explained this to us after the screening. Video sales are apparently not even a question. The film's title seems to suggest an answer to the debate going on right here in this thread.

 

Frank speaks about his relationship to such phenonmena as 'nationality' and if I recall correctly, he has very little use for the idea. He noted that his Mother held Swiss citizenship whereas his father was at one time German until such point the Nazis cancelled his German citizenship owing to his Jewishness. Frank then relates in the film that the Swiss authorities refused to grant his Father citizenship in spite of his marriage to a Swiss citizen and his having sired a Swiss son. Consequently Frank grew up in Zurich feeling like something of an outsider. Frank relates that his family sat out the war in constant terror of a German invasion. The Swiss border was not considered sacrosanct among the citizenry and the Jews who could leave, did. Owing to the elder Frank's statelessness, Robert Frank relates the family could not leave. His father had no papers. No other country would accept them.

 

Later in the film, Franks talks about Zurich and how alien it seems to him. I remember him saying something along the lines that it is not his city, not his country, that sort of thing and that New York is the the place not only where his life now is, but where the entirety of his vocation was nurtured to fruition. He then emphasized the alienness of Zurich to him again.

 

My conclusion from the film is that Frank considers himself a New Yorker rather than a Zuricher. The concept of Swiss or American seems auxillary. I might add, as a New Yorker, that one need not be American to be a New Yorker. So...there it is.

 

My personal opinion about this debate, is that the need within our culture to assign nationality to artists is silly and without substance or meaning. Is this done so that museum pacards are less confusing? Is there a great tally being kept so that one day we'll see who won? Like some art-olympiad? One of the ideas batted about concerning good art is that good art transcends its time. Now without taking a stand on that idea, might I ask if the same might be said for one's nation?

[philip_oxenstein]

It occurred to me after I posted my last entry to include a link to the film synopsis. Keep an eye out for this film on the web if you're interested. It is bound to show up for a limited screening somewhere on this continent again.

 

http://www.tribecafilmfestival.org/tixSYS/2006/filmguide/event_np_full?EventNumber=0013