Mamiya 645E vs Bronica ETRSi

[nolan_ross]

I plan on purchasing either the Mamiya 645E or the Bronica ETRSi. I

am leaning toward the 645E because I think they are newer and also I

am thinking the chances of finding one with low usage is better. A

camera viewfinder is of importance to me and was wondering if one of

these has a brighter and easier to focus viewfinder. I plan on using

a prism when shooting. Does anyone have information on the

characteristics of each of the two. Also is the 645pro viewfinder

the same as the 645e. Thanks for you valuable input.

 

nolan

[robert_ardinger]

Only can speak to the Mamiya cameras. The 645e is a "value priced" camera with built in prism and non removable back (can remove insert). It has a built in meter. It is a nice camera but has a finish and feel consistant with it's price point. The Pro/Pro TTL are system cameras, can have a number of finders (waist level, prism =/- meter), The backs are removable. They have a finish and feel consistant with a professional camera. They are pretty affordable right now.

[SCL]

Go to the following site for mfr. info on ETRSi: http://tamron.com/bronica/prod/etrsi.asp<p>

 

I got one last year and love it. I've used the AEII, AEIII and Waist Level finders, never used the older plain prism. I prefer the AEIII finder due to the built in diopter correction, or the Waist Level finder. The screens are interchangeable, and I updated mine for a Britescreen, although if I had it to do again, I would get a Maxwell screen for the extra 1/2-1 f stop.<p>

I would seriously recommend you handle both the Mamiya and Bronica before committing to a choice. They are different from each other in significant ways and also via nuances. A friend bought my spare ETRS body and a lens, but I had him live with it thru two rolls before committing.

[edward_vargas1]

Speaking for the Bronica ETRSi. I like and prefer the shutter leaf lenses for flash synching to 1/500th of a second. I know many who like the ETRSi for this reason but not for their slow lenses. Their choice of prism finder are excellent, Consider their AE III and rotary prism finder. You can buy excellent plus bodies, lenses, magazines and prism finders from Keh at http://www.keh.com

 

Good luck

[nolan_ross]

I think I have narrowed it down to the Mamiya 645pro or the 645e. Kind of depends on the price. I think I will shop at KEH. I feel that these two models will be newer than the Bronica and the chances of hard use are minimized with newer camera's. I believe the ETRSi are about 20y/old but I am not sure. Obviously the Mamiya pro is more versatile but it will depend on the price. Handling these camera's is not an option since there are none to look at in this area. All the stores are digital camera's only these days. I am familiar with the features of these M/F camera's but cannot find anything on the viewfinder's. Do these have bright viewfinders and do they have split image, microprism focusing aids or how are they set up. Thanks for all your great input.

 

nolan

[andrew booth]

The Mamiya is nice, and a good value new camera. The Bronica is (in my opinion) a better

system with its leaf shutter lenses, but I'd be wary of buying into a dead system (it's no

longer manufactured).

 

The ETRSi is only 10 years old - not 20.

[edward_vargas1]

When you say "newer" are your refering to improvements or newer in terms of older? There is a possibility you can purchase an ETRSi that is 3-5 years old and the only way you may do so is check the serial number with the company. The Bronica ETRSi and PE lenses came to market in 1987 if I am correct. There weren't any impovements that I am aware of. One note: Just because a camera has excellent or excellent plus doesn't mean it didn't have 10,000 rolls run through it. Still would like to know what you did get.

Good luck.

[david_henderson]

Whilst the Bronica was launched in 1988 and the newer "PE" series of lenses in 1992, this doesn't mean they are all that old and indeed the discontinuation of this camera didn't occur till 2004- and frankly there's still a little new stock around I think. Clearly it is the case that on average a camera of a model that has been around a long time will be older and will have seen more use than an example of a camera that has been launched more recently.

 

But you aren't buying the average, you're buying an individual example and here the averages can go out of the window. A camera only a couple of years old can have done daily service in a studio and a couple of weddings every weekend- more use than a hobbyist might make in ten years or more. A fifteen year old camera may have lain in a cupboard for fifteen years and have virtually no usage.

 

The answer to all of this is to buy from someone who you believe to be honest; who can account plausibly for how the camera has been used for a good part of its life, and who ideally has enough confidence in what he's selling to offer a warranty or return option so you can at least get a few films from it before its irrevocably yours. This rules out most sellers but then there's a huge amount of Mamiyas and Bronicas around used. The key point here is to make every effort to understand the example you are buying rather than follow statistically-based "rules" which are correct on average but not at the individual level.

 

If you work hard enough, you will be able to find a relatively new and lightly used version of any of these cameras. It should therefore not be a criterion for your decision; more important is whether the models suit the way you want to use them and have the facilities you need.

[nolan_ross]

I did not know the Bronica ETRSi is only about 10 years old. But I have not followed medium format camera's so there is a lot that I don't know. When I say a newer camera I just mean it is of newer manufacture. I was thinking that the Mamiya models mentioned have been around for less years than the Bronica.

I cannot find a person I know and trust to buy the camera from. I do not know anyone with a medium format camera or anyone that even wants one. I am limited to KEH, ebay (ruled out) and other mail order places. KEH has treated me well and will stand behind the camera with an exchange or refund If I want to do that. Since I am going to purchase from KEH I can only purchase the camera based on the condition stated and the price asked.

However the main thing I am trying to determine is about the viewfinders. Does anyone have knowledge about the viewfinders as to focusing aid's or brightness level. Does the Mamiya have a bright and nice viewfinder? Is there a difference between the 645e and the 645pro. I was able to hold the Bronica ETRSi today at a very nice camera store in Monterey, Ca., and found it to not have any focusing aid's (split image or microprism) and to be bright enough but marginal in that area. It was well worn looking, sturdy and much more expensive than KEH for a very worn camera.

 

 

Nolan

[william_markey]

Nolan, since no one seems to be answering your viewfinder brightness question, I'll chime in. I have the Mamiya 645 Super (great camera!!) and yes, the viewfinder is big and bright with my 150mm f/3.5 lens. I love shooting with this camera more than my Canon 10D digital camera mostly because of the big, bright viewfinder. It's very easy to focus and will be similar to the 645E or Pro. If I remember correctly (it's been many years), I think the Mamiya viewfinder was brighter than my friend's Bronica ETRS. Both systems are great and the only advantage I can see for the Bronica is if you use flash a lot outdoors (leaf shutter lenses)--otherwise, I prefer the handling of the Mamiya. Hope this helps!

[calvin_lee]

I have both the Mamiya 645 Pro & 645E. The viewfinder brightness is about the same between the two models. However, the 645E has a built-in adjustable diopter with a huge range. I have a diopter lens for my 645 Pro, but I still think the 645E is easier to focus.

 

A few years ago, I had the Bronica ETRSi system with the AE-II Prism (very unreliable electronics in that prism). I have a feeling that the newer AE-III Prism might be a little brighter. But at the time, the difference in price was substantial, so I went with the II. Anyways, compared with the Mamiya 645 Pro, I found the Bronica's viewfinder to be a little darker. OTOH, it was easier to focus because it had more contrast than the Mamiya's viewfinder.

 

If you want something to benchmark medium format viewfinders with, try a Hasselblad 503cw at a store. The viewfinder with the Acute-Matte D focusing screen is amazingly bright & contrasty. After trying that, everything will seem dark and hard to focus. I have also tried the Rollei 6008i with it's Hi-D focusing screen and found it to be a little brighter than the Hasselblad Acute-Matte D, but because it was not nearly as contrasty, it was a bit harder to focus. I have also tried the Beattie Intenscreen in the Rollei and found it to be about the same as the Rollei Hi-D screen. I guess I'm rambling, so I'll stop talking now.

[jtyr]

It's really hard to give a defnititive answer to the "which is brighter question", because there are so many variables. Both camera systems have interchangable screens and (of course) interchangable lenses. Max lens aperture and the focusing screen are the two main factors to my understanding. On Bronica's system the normal lens has a f/2.8 max apeture. The Mamiya might have a slightly faster normal. Both system have a wide array of screen options with many different focusing aids-- what ever you want! Even better, Beattie currently makes a wide variety of bright screens for both systems.

 

So in the best case, with a Beattie screen and fastest available lens, which is best? I personally doubt there is much difference. (Though admittedly I've never tried the Mamiya.)

 

I have my ETRSi setup with AE-III and Beattie screen (45 split w/ grid) and it's lovely. Brightness and contrast compare well with my Nikon F2 and F4.

 

One other thing I'll add to this thread, I beleive the Bronica system has a wider variety of prism options: AE-III, Rotary, Action, Sports, Waist Level, etc. The Rotary in particular is very useful and unique to Bronica.

[nolan_ross]

Thank you all for your answers. You have been very helpful to me. I can see that all of the systems would have satisfactory viewfinders and focusing aids to choose from. Calvin, since you have both of the camera's I am considering possibly you could help me a little more if you will. I have a budget and have found that I could purchase the Pro model if I get the non metered basic prism. I would piece a system together from KEH. No grip also. I could then at a later time up grade to whatever I felt I needed in a few months. I do have a seikonic flash meter. I could for the same money purchase the 645e with a grip. What would recommend, and also does the 645e have a construction that would hold up for a good long time. I do not do weddings etc but will be using it regularly. Thank you all again for your advice and help.

 

 

Nolan

[calvin_lee]

Nolan, Unless you feel the need to have a camera with a removable back, the 645E should do just fine. Also, if you will mainly be using the camera on a tripod, there is no need for the grip. In fact, I rarely use the motorized grip on my 645 Pro. I usually use the manual film advance crank as it makes for a lighter camera. Regarding durability, the 645E is probably slightly less durable than the Pro. But not by much. The difference is maybe 10%. The 645 Pro is quite durable, but not nearly as durable as the older metal-skinned M645. I would say the 645 Pro is probably about as durable as a Nikon N90s. Overall, if I were in your shoes, I would opt for the 645E. In addition, the diopter adjustment range is -5 to +5.

 

BTW, do yourself a favor and skip the older M645, M645 1000s, & M645 J cameras. These bodies are now very old and most of them have light seals that have turned into a sticky tarry goop. Also, because of their age, they are more likely to develop shutter problems. I know someone is bound to chime in and say that they have an example without any such problems. But the odds are definately not in your favor. Also, the price difference between an M645 1000s + Prism is not that much cheaper than a 645E body. The 645 Super, Pro, Pro TL, & E have done away with the foam light seals. Instead they use light baffles which will never develop the light seal turned-to-tar syndrome that afflicts the older bodies. If you keep the camera for another 15 or 20 years, you will only have to worry about the foam mirror cushions turning to goop. Another thing to consider is that if you opt for the 645 Pro, the camera does not accept a standard mechanical cable release. You will either have to buy the electro-mechanical release or the adapter for the mechanical cable release. You may also want to consider the 645 Super if you are not planning on using the motorized grip. The Super did not have as robust a winding mechanism as the Pro, and is a little more prone to developing film advance problems with heavy winder usage. Otherwise, it is pretty much the same camera at a lower price. Over the last 7 years, I have owned the M645 1000s, M645, 645 Super, 645E, & 645 Pro, and can definately recommend the 645E & Pro to anyone looking for a low-cost 645 system. Hope this helps and good luck with your purchasing decision.

[nolan_ross]

Calvin, thank you for the in depth comments on this topic. I have received a lot of information and will go ahead and purchase the 645E with standard lens. It has plenty of features and the price fits my budget. Ultimately I plan on adding a wide and tele lense to the system. Since I intend on using this camera with tripod I think I can omit the power grip. Thanks again for the help. I really love film photography and this will be a great new experience for me. I am glad that there is a model out there that fits my needs so well.

 

 

nolan

[edward_vargas1]

Would recommend getting the grip . Makes handling a lot easier for vertical shots when not using a tripod.

[nolan_ross]

Thanks for the tip on the grip. I plan on using the camera on a tripod with the Mirror up. But if I find I need one, I can pick it up later since they are reasonable in cost. I can see the square shape of the camera might prove to be difficult to handle. But I plan on adding accessories as I find a need for them.

 

 

Nolan

[steve_agocs]

I have a 645E and I love it. Changeable film backs was unnecessary for me. I would love

the option of a waist-level viewfinder for low-to-the-ground shots, but you can't have

everything! I found a 645E that looked new, with 80mm lens and 120 film holder locally

for $400.

[nolan_ross]

I have considered the low to ground thoughts. I just figured like you that you cannot have everything and that I will deal with it the same way I do with my 35mm. I think $400.00 sounds like a reasonable price to get into the M/F system. I hope I do as well.

 

nolan

[qukizz]

Mamiya 645E is pretty good deal but my experience with this system is not too pleasant. With temp. close to freezing shutter get stuck open and will not close until shutter relese button is pressed again. It's not isolated issue. I found on internet some people complaining about it too. It's not battery problem because I checked it with brand new battery.