Rangefinder vs. TLR for versatility and handheld sharpness

[johnw436]

I have often seen recommendations for rangefinders regarding low

light and/or silent photography. I have never used a rangefinder and

I'm not exactly sure how one works.

 

I do a lot of church photography and my Bronica ETRS just isn't cut

out for covert use. When the church is empty and I can break out my

tripod it's perfect, but I obviously can't do that during a service

or when people are expecting peace and quiet.

 

I need covert and portable, meaning handheld. I am looking toward a

rangefinder or TLR. What would be the pros/cons to each for

handheld, available light shots (1/30 for instance). I could

probably get away with a small tabletop tripod or something discreet.

 

Having never used a TLR or rangefinder I'm not sure which avenue to

explore. I appreciate you guys' expertise and experience.

[eric_brody]

Any camera with a leaf shutter, and no flapping mirror, eg a rangefinder or a TLR, will allow hand held exposures at lower shutter speeds. The problem is that in the world of medium format there are no really "fast" rangefinder lenses, the fastest on my Mamiya 7II is an f/4, I do not think the out of production Fuji's are faster either. Both have superb sharpeness. There are faster TLR lenses, there is a f/2.8 Rollei, but nothing like the f/2 and f/1.4's one can use in 35mm or digital format. Leaf shutter cameras without mirrors are also quiet. When I'm near a stream in the woods, I have to hold my ear close to the camera to be sure my M7II has fired. The TLR's except for the Mamiya's do not have interchangeable lenses.

 

You do not mention what type of "covert" church photography you plan to do, so it's a bit difficult to answer your question directly. For architectural work, a larger negative is clearly desirable, for ceremonies with moving people, a small hand held camera such as a Leica might work better. Only you can decide where you fall on the ease of use vs quality equation.

 

Rangefinder focusing can require some getting used to so I'd attempt to try one before making a major financial committment.

[ivan_dzo]

I use a rolliecord, which is a very quiet camera indeed. I don't have any MF rangefinders, but certainly my Voigtlander bessa r2 is one of my noisiest cameras despite no mirror. My Contax G2's are only slightly quieter. I think in 35mm Leica have this cornered. No idea about mf rangefinders though.

[jon_noble]

"The problem is that in the world of medium format there are no really "fast" rangefinder lenses"

 

Thats true, but remember, you can use faster films and get away with it because you are not enlarging it as much. I am very surprised with Delta 3200 in 120 (i hate it in 35mm). To me, it has grain characteristics of TriX.

[Ed_Ingold]

A medium format camera of any sort is not well suited to available light photography like this. A Rollei TLR is quiet, but awkward and slow (lenswise). You might as well use a 35mm camera with a fast lens. You'll get better sharpness.

 

A 35mm SLR is still pretty noisy when you consider the mirror and shutter flopping (the shutter makes as much noise as the mirror in a Nikon D2h). If you want to be discrete, yet have fast, interchangeable lenses, use a Leica. Be the first person in recent years to actually use a Leica to take pictures instead of as an object of worship.

[gaius1]

<blockquote>Be the first person in recent years to actually use a Leica to take pictures instead of as an object of worship.</blockquote>Hear, hear.

[johnw436]

Thank you all for your input.

 

By covert I simply meant discreet. In a quiet church decked out in marble and tile my Bronica is loud enough to startle some and will annoy everyone else. I am not doing undercover work, I'm just trying to be respectful in regards to noise. I can't very well take environmental photos of the priest, etc with my mirror slapping like Bruce Lee breaking boards in the back pew. Then I get to cock the shutter/mirror with my speed handle and sound like I'm using a pepper grinder.

 

My 35mm bodies (N65 and FE2) aren't as loud, but they're loud enough to be obnoxious at times.

 

Fixed lens is fine. That's why the TLR sounded like it could be useful. Again, I have no idea how a rangefinder works so I can't decide whether the cost of one vs. a TLR is justified.

 

Edward, I love your comment in regards tousing a Leica to take pictures instead of as an object of worship. Got me laughing.

[kaiblanke]

Contrary to what collectors believe, the Leicas M series are indeed fine picture takers and well suited for the type of photography you mention. But they are not the quietest: If you can live with one lens only, any 70's rangefinder like the Canonet QL III 17 or a Rollei 35 are much more quiet. These also have usually great lenses, but they have not the largest negative size. However, there are alot of such cameras which allow you to enlarge up to 10/15 or even larger.

<p>

If you want MF, then things are a bit more limited: The rangefinder cameras are indeed sweet, but feature usually slow lenses. The TLR's have only marginally faster lenses (f3.5) with the exception of the Rolleiflex 2.8 series. Any of these cameras equipped with a Planar or Xenotar will be a great picture taker, but the viewing screen might have to be replaced with a brighter one of you prefer to work in available light conditions mostly.

<p>

I however would dig out my Leica M for purposes like this: equipped with a f2 or f1.4 lens they are the best available-light film cameras I know.

[Brian]

Two things about TLRs:- first, the viewfinders are generally not suited to low light; second, the shutter is very quiet but the wind-on usually is not. To me, this rules them out for your intended purpose. I don't have experience of MF rangefinders other than the Moskva 5, and I wouldn't want to use that in the conditions you describe either.

[35mmdelux]

Rangefinders are far better suited for low-light handheld photog. There are many in this venue that are very quiet as well. Fujis are probably the quietest but do not have interchangeable lenses. Its always said that compromises need to be made in the field of photog. If you want something really quite, consider a Leica. Leicas are often used in courtrooms and on movie sets, where the upmost quiet is necessary.

[ivan_dzo]

I've swapped the screen in my rolliecord iv and now with a split screen focus aid and the increased brightness, it's as easy as any of my other cameras, including rangefinders. In addition, the wind on isn't motorised, so you can do it when you wish and put the camera down low to do it. Not as good as a leica but about 15x cheaper and 4x the size of negative!

[donald_brewster]

Well, it depends. Leica M (or similar rangefinders) are quiet, inobtrusive, and have faster lenses if that is required. Fine instruments and they'll do the job. I've typically tended toward the bigger negative of MF. I use both a Rollei TLR and a Mamiya 7 primarily now. I have found that the Rollei TLR is my most unobtrusive camera with the waist level finder. I can also look into the finder facing north and have the lens facing west and no one is (hopefully) the wiser. While the lenses are a little slower, that can be compensated for with faster film -- Fuji NPZ in color and Ilford 3200 or Fuji Neopan 1600 in B/W. It's going to be ultimately what you are comfortable with. You might try the TLR route first since cheaper and see if you like working with the square (assuming you can't rent or borrow one of each to try out). Good luck.

[sndr]

Just beware: the leaf shutters on the Fuji rangefinders (GW670 etc.) are LOUD. They sound very metallic and the camera itself seems to act as a resonator. Many 35mm slrs are quieter than the big Fuji rangefinders.

 

The Fujis do make incredibly sharp pictures, though.

[richard_laepple]

I sometimes work with a Fuji GS645 which is a noticeable noisier than my Rolleiflex but not as noisy as a SLR. It also has a faster lens (f=3.4/75mm) than most MF rangefinders. I never used or owned a Makina 67 which may be perfect for the kind of shooting you mean (Nikkor f=2.8/80mm). I agree with Kai that the 35mm rangefinders of the 1970ies ar very descreet cameras (Canonet, Minolta Himatic, Konica S3...) They all have very fast lenses (f=1.7/40mm or so). The Rolleiflex SL35 is the quietest 35mm SLR I can remember, then come the Olympus OM-1/OM-2. The Nikons come behind them except the N70/F70 which is the quietest Nikon SLR as far as I know.

[35mmdelux]

The HexarAf has a stellar 40mm lens and is considered the quietest and stealthiest of all cameras. With its top speed of 250 it would be great for low-light applications.

 

I don't know of any MF that is small enough to be stealthy. Quiet maybe, but not stealthy.

[picturesque]

I would go with Leicas. I used a Mamiya C330f for a long time shooting weddings. It is not the quietest TLR.

[afs760bf]

You could try to find one of the earlier Konica Hexars with silent mode - it's very quiet and a Leica clone - will take Leica M glass. It's 35mm. Koni-Omegaflex cameras are medium format TLR's and pretty quiet (leaf shutter), but large. I think the 90mm lens can open to f3.5, though.

[doug grosjean]

Hi,<br>

<br>

I'm probably not nearly as experienced as many here, but I do get to shoot with rangefinders (35mm and 120, Olympus XA and Kodak Medalist), 120-format TLR cameras (Rolleicord V), and 35mm SLR (Nikon N-80 or Minolta XD-11).<br>

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If it's stealth photos of people, the Rolleicord wins. Only older people see it as a camera, others simply ignore it. You can compose and focus and shoot while people walk right by.

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For the same reasons, it's also the best portrait camera I've used, as I can carry on a conversation with the subject and have them at ease, and when I tell them we're all done shooting they're shocked that I've taken any photos at all.

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Also with the big 120 film, you can use ASA-400 and not pay too big a price for grain. If you use B/W, you can even push-process the negs to ASA-3200, which allows you to shoot in lots of places without a flash, handheld.

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Rangefinders and SLRs, people notice you putting the camera to your face and get defensive and begin to avoid you. With the TLR, they see you composing and figure you're just working on the camera.

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I was at the Detroit Auto Show yesterday, and time and again I'd just blend into the crowd while shooting, because people didn't see my gear as even being a camera.

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Best,<br>

Doug Grosjean<br>

NW OH / SE MI<br>

www.douggrosjean.com<br>

[Ed_Ingold]

I went to the Chicago Auto Show last year with a D1x and a couple of f/2.8 zooms - bigger (and heavier) than an Hasselblad. Guess what! Nobody noticed, nobody cared. This is either related to the "hidden in plain view" phenomena, or everybody else was simply struggling to spell "h..e..m..i". At a wedding (or car show), it's a matter of being unobtrusive, not covert.

[35mmdelux]

I have noticed one thing about my shooting, and I'm no stealthy covert guy. If feel insecure, then it seems as if the whole world is starring at me! But when I don't have time to ponder these insecurities or just don't care, then it seems that no cares what I am doing either.

 

What I am saying is that many times we project and assume others care as much as we do, when in fact many don't. Just don*t make it too obvious or flash in their face. I use Leicas and H'blds.

[michael_bach2]

The Konica Hexar AF has a wery good 35mm 2,0 lens, it is a fixed lens, the old black

model of the camera is wery wery quiet and discret.

 

But most of the time I find that peopel dont mind if you make a littel noise and take som

nice photos of ther churce. And if you smile they cant be angry cant they.

 

Do you have a monopod.

 

www.micbach.dk.............."Photography workshops in Spain"

[jeffpolaski]

My Minox 35ML is utterly silent: I sometimes look at the shutter indicator to see if an exposure was made. It has a 35mm f/2.8 lens that is quite good. It has aperture priority with exposure lock in the shutter release button, so I have control over my exposure. The Program mode works quite well. No rangefinder; you estimate distance and set the focus. I don't have problems with out-of-focus exposures. It is small! Even when I open the front door (swings down) and the lens moves out, I don't think people see it as a camera.

 

Check out the Minox forum on PhotoNet or do a search. No longer in production, they can be bought reasonably on eBay. All that said, some people have had shutter problems -- I have never had that experience.

[joename]

I have a Mamiya C330f and a Mamiya 6. I think the Mamiya 6 would suit your purpose quite well. It's easy to handhold 1/30th, has an amazing lens (f3.5 for the 75mm) and a practical cult following. They aren't that easy to find, but as far as MF rangefinders go, they are pretty darn sweet. Very quiet also. The C330f does well in crowds because it's very unobtrusive - you aren't holding a camera up to your face to point it at somebody. But without a Beattie (brighter focusing screen) it would be difficult to focus in poor lighting.

[robert_clark]

I use Leica M's, a Hexar AF, a Pentax LX, a Rolleflex 2.8F Planar and a Bronica RF 645.

 

The Leica M and the Bronica RF fit the bill for quietness with the extra flexibility of interchangeable lenses, the leica lenses are fast - to f1.4 or even f1.0. - but the Bronica lenses are F4 (27 and 39mm equivalents on 35mm) - so relatively slow. With the Rolleiflex although the lens is a stop faster - f2.8 - you have a fixed 80mm lens (equivalent to 50mm on 35mm camera), so it may be a bit limited.

 

Composing with the Rolleiflex is probably the most reliable and enjoyable, and if you have time it is a delight.

 

Adding a monopod to any of the cameras, of course, will give you a stop or two extra, they are quick to use and easily manouverable. A Monopod works perfectly with the Rolleflex.

 

If I wanted to use MF for this, I think for the combination of wide and standard lens, speed of use, silence and ease of focus I would use the Bronica RF.

[erik scanhancer]

When I shoot funerals I use a combo of Mamiya 6 (a very "dry" click and quiet transport) and

Minox 35ML for shooting from the hip. Works great. Later on many people are often amazed

to see that there was a photographer while they were at the funeral themselves too.