Leica M quality and pricing - don't make me laugh!

[giles_poilu]

It seems the gentleman with the poor performing 'Summicron' in the thread below <variation of lens quality...> may have a 'lemon' as we say here in England. Legendary Leica quality is not what it once was. Of the 6 'M' lenses I have owned, 4 have had had problems. These ranged from misaligned component parts to loose apeture rings and in two cases, totally unacceptable performance 'wide open'. One of these (a pre-aspherical) 35 Summicron was un-usable at F2, this wasn't simply a case of slightly soft at the edges - the entire outer portion of the frame was totally out of focus. The lens was returned to Leica Germany with some example transparencies, and their reply?: "This lens is within our parameters - we suggest you purchase the Aspherical model" (!)

 

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Of 5 'M' bodies I have owned again 3 have had serious manufacturing problems ranging from foggy viewfinders to misaligned shutter curtains to misaligned 'vulcanite' to malajusted rangefinders. Only my 35 year old user M2 is perfect.

 

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For a company that talks so much of quality control it is severly lacking. It has been discussed many times, however, the quality of manufacturing, materials and control procedures is NOTHING like it was a few decades ago. If I pay £1900 for a new TTL M now I expect 'M3' build quality and materials for what is a huge outlay.

 

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I love my Leicas above all others but prefer to use the older 'quality' models. After some 30+ years of (almost) un-changed 'modern' M production surely they have paid for the tooling now! Instead of trying to 'improve' the M models why not invest in some new supervisors?

 

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Leicas' entire quality/price structure is riduculous - The new 'M' motor (made in Portugal) retails here at £450! The plastic accessory viewfinders are £200+ Would someone like to justify that!

[michael_kastner]

How about this answer to your last question: "No, I wouldn't like to

justify that." (I don't even want a motor anyways, not even as a free

gift.)

[msitaraman]

1900 English Pounds!! You should shop from

www.robertwhite.co.uk

[sparkie]

I have had problems also..with my 35 'lux asph, loose ap rings and not

very contrasty output...maybe had a dud. The M-motor is over-priced for

what it is. its almost the price of a Minilux f2.4(!) Put that into

perspective and I think the bean counter at Leica may have been a

little too creative on this one or was drinking snapps at the time, or

both.

[gary_yeowell]

Giles,

I unfortunately have to agree with many of your comments including

the one about the pre-aspheric 35f2, mine also was not good wide open

so I bought the ASPH.

I have on many occassions had poor servicing at Leica with products

returned with more faults than they went with so have sourced

alternative servicing. I know some people will say that it happens

everywhere but my Hasselblad servicing is second to none.

All said and done though my M6,s have never let me down (R6,s have)

and in general the lenses are unbeatable.

[michael_kastner]

Giles, maybe I should put it this way: I don't want to step on your

toes, but I would like to underline my feelings about Leica prices.

 

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(a) The thing about the motor was only an example. If I don't want

something in the first place, I of course don't worry about what it

costs. If I <i>do</i> want something and Source No. 1 seems pretty

expensive, I then check out Source No. 2 etc etc. As far as I know,

everything from Leica here at home is <i>not</i> "always much cheaper"

than anywhere else. Nevertheless, your 1900 pounder would cost me

"only" 1397 pounds (in DM) here.

 

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(b) If there is something I really need/want and it's really

expensive, I'll still buy it if I have the money. If I don't have the

money, I won't buy it.

 

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© As you say, many good/important things are nothing like they were

a few decades ago. But that's life! OTOH everything I've ever bought

from Leica was and still is basically in perfect condition (except for

the 2/35 ASPH hood which I easily got replaced two weeks later with

zero problems and no money).

 

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My very own feelings. Maybe I'm not alone here, but if I am, that

doesn't matter either.

[bobtodrick]

Firstly I would like to know if the above (Giles) equipment was all

purchased new. If not than we are dealing with the fact that some of

the items may have been mistreated or seen hard use before he came

upon them. If they were all new - the Leica gods must really have it

out for you ;-) I have used Leica for 10 years now (IIIg, M4, CL M5,

R3 and a passel of lensed) and have sent only one thing in for repair

(I dropped the M4 from a stepladder), and the odd CLA. How heavy do

I use my gear. This past week I started throwing out all the old

negs I feel I will never print. The last two nights I've thrown out

about 1000 negs each night and I think I have about two weeks to go.

(kind of a mid-life crisis sort of thing). Anyway my gear sees a lot

of film. I have as aquaintences a number of Leica users (one of whom

shoots for Life, another the NY Times, both use thier M's alot). I

don't think that between us all we've seen as many problems as Giles.

[squareframe]

paying a bloated price for a camera doesn't necessarily buy you

anything above what other camera systems offer. I have a Nikon F

camera system with six lenses that have been around the world,

thousands of rolls through them in all conditions, and not a hint of

a problem. I have a Canon EOS-3 averaging four rolls per week since

1999, without a glitch. I wouldn't be surprised if Leica is down on

the list in terms of reliability and service compared with lesser

cameras.

[john_collier5]

My favourite rebuttal to the quality control issue is the chap on the

Leica-Users who in the sixties received his brand new, ordered

from the distributor, sealed box M3 with no rangefinder arm! The

dealer was told to order the missing parts.

 

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I also have a M2 but ALL my photography is with my TTL. It is

much more convenient to load, rewind, meter and use a flash. I

just keep my M2 as a back up.

 

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Better luck next time!

[john15]

For someone on the cusp of purchasing his first Leica M, the comments

and complaints of Giles and others are unsettling. It seems that

problems with recent M6's and lenses are not all that uncommon and

that Leica's response to some of these problems seems less than

adaquate. Despite the very large number of Nikon FM2's that have been

sold, I haven't seen much at all about mechanical problems. I wonder

if this has something to do with expectations: if I pay a lot for a

camera that has a reputation for extraordinary quality, I will tend

to see any problem as unacceptable. Of course, Leica could do more

toward salving this issue by reacting in a more positive way to the

buyer's complaints.

[Niels - NHSN]

Photographers in 1955 had had to pay more than what equals 3300 US$

in todays money (according to E. Puts). I am sure Leica could give us

M3 quality/QA for this amount, but would you buy it? -I wouldn't.

[richie chishty]

Giles:

 

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I bought a new Leica M6 TTL last year. The shutter jammed after only

one month of light use. It took Leica USA to 3 months to repair the

camera and return it to me. Needless to say, I was not a happy

camper! The aperture ring of my new 35mm Summicron ASPH lens is

loose, after a year of usage. I have a number of older cameras and

lenses, including two M3s. They are far better built than today's

Leicas. This is a controversial topic, but after reading numerous

emails and postings about defective new cameras and lenses, I think

Leica has a serious quality control problem.

[javier]

I bought a brand new R6.2 a year and a half ago. So far so good. The

only dud I found if that the bracketing dial doesn't reach the +2, it

gets only 2 and 2/3 of stop. I haven't sent it for repair because I

never use this function and the less hands messing into the camera the

better. I guess that for a camera with so few functions it shouldn't

be difficult to check them all before leaving the factory (Made in

Germany, in this case!). The answer is, YES, the expectations

are very high when you pay so much. However, although I haven't been

as lucky as some people in this forum, who have owned many systems and

many cameras through their lives, everytime that I have the

opportunity to play with other cameras the comment I make to myself is

"I wouldn't change it for mine"!

[giles_poilu]

A very interesting cross section of responses. Just to add some

details: The equipment I refer to ranges from new, through hardly

touched to 'nicely employed!'

 

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Michael - I agree with much of what you say, to add a cumbersome

motor to an M is to go against all the M's atributes. I worship the

God of 'shopping around'. As long as the service is there! I will

spend an eternity to save a few pounds.! Frequently the poorest

service is accompanied by the highest prices. Which brings me to the

Leica Shop 'Classic Camera' by the British Museum. I note in todays

Amateur Photographer he has reduced the M body price by £400 - there

must be some HUGE profit margin built in for the retailer.

 

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The best value Leica product? The Voigtlander 15mm. Would a Leica

equivalent at a probable £2000 (including viewfinder) be £1700 better?

[paul_chefurka]

This is odd. Over the years I have purchased 6 M series cameras (M3,

2xM4, 2xM6, M6TTL). The TTL and the M6HM were purchased new, the

others were used. The only problem I've ever had was with the M3 RF

going out of adjustment. The others have been perfect.

 

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Over those same years I have purchased 17 M lenses - 11 new, 6 used.

Of those I've had to have the aperture ring fixed on a used 50

Summicron, and two new examples of the Tri-Elmar had problems - one

with the aperture ring, one with the focus selector ring.

 

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Overall, this seems like a reasonable frequency of faults, except

maybe for the 3E. I just wish the new cars I've bought (for far

higher sums of money) showed anything like this level of quality.

 

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The problem with inferring QC problems from a few defects reported on

the net is that the reporting population is inherently biased.

Broken wheels always squeak the loudest.

 

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And anyone who doesn't understand the effect of economies of scale on

product pricing should take a hard look at the prices of bespoke

suits and shoes, hand-crafted furniture etc. compared to the prices

of their high-volume, mass-market brethern. Of course the Motor-M is

expensive. It's a pretty low-volume item in the Leica catalogue, I'd

bet. We all knew Leica gear was relatively expensive when we bought

into the marque. This is no surprise.

 

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I understand the feeling of paying a lot of money for an item that

arrives defective, but that's the reason we all do business with

local dealers, isn't it? I walked back into the store with my second

busted 3E and got a new one out of their stock with no quibble. I

walked out happy, and went on shooting. Now if I'd bought a grey-

market mailorder item from the US my feelings would have been

different, but I wouldn't have been mad at Leica - I'd have cursed

the fact that I had been penny-wise and pound-foolish.

 

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Nobody needs to justify Leica's pricing - if you don't like the

price, the strongest statement you can make as a consumer is not to

buy the item. If enough people follow that path, the item is

eventually either dropped or repriced. Whining about it on the net

isn't terribly productive.

[michael_kastner]

Giles, Just so you know that I, too, don't think it is nice that

Leica's great, expectable and otherwise meritorious tradition may

indeed be starting to cough out, don't overlook Peter Hughes'

exemplification

<BR>"50mm Summicron-M -- Focusing Binding"

<BR>(<U><FONT COLOR="#3333FF"><A

HREF="http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=006

dnF">http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=006d

nF</A></FONT></U>)

<BR>a note which appeared the same day yours has. (My note here is for

the future.)

[giles_poilu]

I forgot to put in my last contribution that the Tri-Elmar I am

considering purchasing is one Leica product that seems to be very

good value.

 

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Ha Ha! If <whining about it on the net isn't terribly productive>

then I must disagree: Paul's experinces have taught me I must be

doubly careful when checking over a prospective example of Leica's

most complex lens!

 

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Thanks Paul.

[giles_poilu]

Apologies:

 

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I forgot to put in my last contribution that the Tri-Elmar I am

considering purchasing is one Leica product that seems to be very

good value.

Ha Ha! If:

 

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"Whining about it on the net isn't terribly productive"

 

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then I must disagree: Paul's experinces have taught me I must be

doubly careful when checking over a prospective example of Leica's

most complex lens!

 

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Thanks Paul.

[paul_chefurka]

Every lens should be carefully inspected before purchase for

mechanical flaws, and tested immediately upon purchase for optical

flaws.

 

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In my case, the diaphragm on the first 3E failed after a month of

steady use including a trip to Belize, and the fact that I ended up

with a secod bad example was my own fault, for not doing a careful

inspection in the store. Were either of them signs of poor QC? I

have no idea, the sample size is way too small to allow me to draw

such an inference.

[popeye_cahn]

Actually the $3300 usd is right on mark (if your putting a lens on

that body), I priced one out last week at local dealer as I had been

considering the M6TTL and 35/2 asph. I'm re-considering though,

buying one used may or may not be a better option, price is one

object but if one gets it off eBay your recourse options are

typically nil though there are some excellent dealers here in the

states.

 

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But the word on the street about Leica US customer service and repair

turnaround has me really concerned, yeah I know the squeaky wheel

gets the oil, but how many M6's are produced compared to say an F5?

Better yet can anyone produce some rate of return charts for either?

 

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I really like the technical advantages of the M6TTL, and the quality

of the new asph 35mm is excellent (image...), but if I want the

system maybe an earlier series would be a better choice and I can use

the dough I've saved for film...or a Voigtlander lens.

[paul_chefurka]

Defect/return rates are very closely held corporate secrets. That's

why all there is to go on is the volume of complaints on the net - no

camera company will divulge their real numbers.

 

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The only Leica I know of that was eventually acknowleged as a dog by

the company was the early R4 production. Even there they didn't

admit to any problems until Ted Grant offered to smash a couple of

them with a sledgehammer on the front steps of the Leica plant in

Midland, in full view of the CBC TV cameras. Leica put a quality

improvement program in place post haste.

[peter_hughes1]

I had Nikons for many years, can't recall ever having one problem

with them. I recently sold off an EOS system with 8 lenses, also

trouble free. Hassy and Leica, OTOH, are very problematical. My

conclusion is that the Japanese are simply better at mass production

and quality control.

 

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The situation is analogous to that of audio. The Japanese gear is

cheap, mass produced, usually trouble free. The American, British and

Euro gear is expensive, handmade and often problematical. Of course,

the former sounds like rattling tuna fish cans while the latter

sounds like music.

 

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Oh well.

[douglas k.]

FYI John Meyers:

 

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My Nikon FM2n developed a faulty meter less than one year out of the

box, and has been back twice, to no permanent avail. And when brand

new its shutter was less accurate than the one in my nine year old M6.

[popeye_cahn]

Umm Peter, only if your speaking of consumer audio. Pro or high end

audio different matter, Sony pro audio absolutely the worst don't

attempt to get your DAT or anything not in production fixed. Best

audio gear all around bar none, Studer and I'll go to bat for them.

If they can do it, Leica can do it and anything else is pure

corporate bullsh!t.

 

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So to you at Leica Camera AG, get off your arses and get it right

otherwise expect more losses. And to Leica US, get thy thumbs out of

thine anus, quit screwing around and fix our junk!

[popeye_cahn]

Paul,

 

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You're comment gives me a good idea...2 M6's: $3500, plane fair to

Germany: $750, sledgehammer from Ace hdwre: $19.95, TV crew: free,

Satisfaction of Corporate action: Priceless!