Making the case for full frame sensors

[mr._smith]

Canon is making the case for full frame sensors on its web site.

 

My guess is that we'll never see a 12mp dslr based on an APS sized

sensor from Canon. Full frame sensor could be the way of the future

for all Canon dslr above 8mp.

 

http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/cmos/index-e.html

[JosvanEekelen]

I think you are wrong. I expect Canon to counter the new Sony 11 mp sensor that is used in the DSC-R1. This sensor or one of a similar design may be used by Pentax/Minolta/Nikon as well. Let's hope that the price of the Canon FF cameras follows the same route as that of the D30 and its successors. A bit of competition between manufacturers is not bad for the buyers of the cameras.

 

just my 2?c

[mr._smith]

It don't think that's where the battle will be fought.

 

Nikon is coming out with the D200 camera available at around Christmas time. It will have more than 10mp, a new APS sized photo sensor, different from the D2 sensor.

 

If the price point of the D200 is comparable to the D100 that should put Nikon in the lead in that segment.

 

Will have to wait to see if and when Canon reacts to the new Nikon offering. That will give us a clear indication of Canon's future path.

[bobatkins]

I don't think Canon's next offering in the consumer DSLR field (which is likely to be the "30D" and appear in Spring 2006) will be full frame. I don't think the price of full frame sensors has dropped low enough to put one in a sub $1500 camera. I'd guess the next consumer DSLR from Canon will be a 10-12MP model with the same APS-C sized sensor. However for the "40D", which might be expected in the fall of 2007 I think there's a better than 50/50 chance it will be full frame.

 

I imagine the Digital Rebel line will stay at APS-C, but with more pixels and lower pricing (though I doubt it will drop below $500).

[Greg M]

I think Mr. Smith could be correct on this one.

 

The 5D is coming out today at the approximate price the 3 megapixel D30 came out at back in 2001- just 4 years ago, and you see where prices on the 20D are today. At 12 MP and with a 35mm size sensor, the 5D's sensor already is heads above Sony's sensor without having to introduce anything else and, just like the price of the D30, I don't expect it will take too long for the prices on both the 5D and any resulting improved models to come down.

 

I have no use for a camera like the Sony, with a non-interchangeable lens that's priced not that much less than a 20D. I have no doubt in 3-5 years I'll be able to afford a 5D variant that will be a much better camera than the 5D that's coming out today. Until then I have Digital SLR's that suit me just fine. For the people who have to have something today, there's no doubt the Sony will be bought in some numbers- it is a substantial improvement in what's been available for that market of camera, but in that price range there are better options, especially for SLR users who already have their lenses.

[mr._smith]

Bob,

 

My guess is that Canon is gearing to go all out full frame within a two year time frame (probably 2007, 2008 at the latest) and that would make the 30D the last APS size dslr above 8mp.

 

The info on Canon's website is so pro full frame that I cannot see them continuing with two sensors sizes past the 30D.

 

But then, Canon has another leverage: gradual price reduction on the 5D after New Year 2006 to approach Nikon's D200 price point.

 

And if Katrina has any tangible effect on the US economy, dslr should come down in price in 2006.

[jean_jacques_lemaire]

I personnally don't really care about resolution, since we have 8Mpixels. Though I wouldn't refuse a 12MPixels sensor ;)<BR>

What would appeal me really more is an increase in dynamics, even lower noise for higher ISO and last but not least, better color sampling (I like the concept of the Foveon X3 sensor).<BR>

I wouldn't refuse an APS-C sensor capable of doing video too (with another shutter system, of course).<BR>

<BR>

I don't think that 8Mpixels are the limit for an APS-C sensor. Just look at the recent P&S cameras specs. But if you want to increase resolution without getting harsh contrasts, high noise... you have to increase photon to electron conversion efficiency within sensors. As we're still in a early stage about this, I'm not making too many plans about future...

[bobatkins]

We're far from in the early stages of photo to electron coneverion. It's a quantum limited process and it can approach 90% for a photosite when illuminated with the appropriate wavelength of light. Even for whole sensors (where Q.E. includes photons lost because they fall between individual pixels) the overall Q.E. can be 50%. So there isn't a huge amount of improvement that's possible. It's not like we're operating at 5% and could make a 20 fold improvement.

 

I would not be at all surprised to see a 12MP APS-C DSLR produced by Canon for the consumer market. In that market pixels may count more than low noise performance. I'd imagine that a 12MP APS-C sensor could be made which would produce quite decent results at ISO 1600 without too much processing. Pixels even smaller than that have been used. A 12MP APS-C sensor would have pixels about the same size as the Olympus Evolt E-300 4/3 CCD sensor. It's OK at ISO 800, but a bit marginal at ISO 1600. Using Canon CMOS technology I wouldn't be surprised to see decent results at ISO 1600 with such a pixel size.

 

8MP will certainly not be the largest pixel count APS-C sensor that we see.

[j_sevigny]

Mr. Smith -- What makes you think the D200 will be available by Christmas, anyway?

[scott_eaton]

<I>My guess is that we'll never see a 12mp dslr based on an APS sized sensor from Canon</i><P>I'm still waiting to "see" Canon lenses under 50mm that I'd put on my 6mp 10D.<P>Regretfully, I'm guessing we'll see more and more pixel density crammed into current APS sensors, resulting in more complaints and gripes from their new owners about how soft the images are. You can keep the increased pixzel density along with Canon's marketing dept - I want either a radical increase in the quality of optics to compliment the cameras we have <b>now</b>, or bigger sensors.

[scott_eaton]

Example in point, here's a center crop from a 20D sample image from Canon's own site with the much over-rated 24-70 2.8L. Feel free to gasp in the glory in the lack of grain, no noise....no detail or resolution either. I can't tell if the green stuff on the distant mountains are trees, or moss growing on rocks. Fake plastic trees in the foreground as well? Can't tell you because the shot is so soft.

 

...and you guys want 12mp+ APS sensors with the same glass. As it is, I'm feeling the need to upgrade my computer to something faster at completing all the USM passes in my dSLR capture.

 

I agree with Bob on sensor noise, but feel you guys are high otherwise.

[ilkka_nissila]

Scott, Canon's image processing is responsible for the plasticy look and fake colours. The FF design and lens designs not quite good for FF are responsible for the soft corners in Canon's example landscape shot. There is a 12 MP APS sensor DSLR on the market which suffers from neither soft corners, plasticy looks, or fake colours. You know who makes it. Try it out with some high-end glass.

[ilkka_nissila]

Also, I think Canon designs their image processing to win comparisons in test photographs of gray cards, which creates the mushy grass. Again, the same camera mentioned in my post above has not this problem.

[peter_yee]

I think Canon can easily make a DSLR with a near full size sensor to replace the 20D. A new sensor using the 5D sensor technology with a crop factor of about 1.125 or 10.1 megapixels might just double the number of usable sensors from a CMOS wafer (if the reported current yield of 5 sensors out of 20 on an 8 inch diameter wafer is correct). If the sensor on the 5D cost 2000 dollars, that means the smaller sensor will cost about half as much. So a 20D replacement with an almost full size sensor can be around 2000 dollars. Canon have done this before with the XT using an 8 megapixel chip instead of the 8.2 megapixel chip of the 20D. I suspect the reason for doing that is a significant cut in sensor cost for the XT.

[ben_rubinstein___mancheste]

Making a EF-S enabled 12 megapixel camera by spring would seriously piss off all those upgrading from a 20D to a 5D, it should also drop the price of the 5D significantly in that it's only advantage, only, would be FF.

 

When will people realise? 12 megapixels is so good as to be the limit for what most peoples technique can cope with. My 1Ds strained both my technique while shooting and post processing. It also needed the best in lenses, my 17-40L which was brilliant on the 10D was really shown up on the 1Ds compared to the 24-70L and various primes.

 

Forget more megapixels in consumer level DSLR's, 35mm doesn't necessarily need to be med format anyway. However more DR in the highlights and quality WA lenses are now really important. Canon realised that it's flash sytem and units needed an overhaul with digital, now it's time for the lenses. Forget the megapixel race, concentrate on the canon SLR system as a whole.

[Greg M]

"Scott, Canon's image processing is responsible for the plasticy look and fake colours. The FF design and lens designs not quite good for FF are responsible for the soft corners in Canon's example landscape shot. There is a 12 MP APS sensor DSLR on the market which suffers from neither soft corners, plasticy looks, or fake colours. You know who makes it. Try it out with some high-end glass."

 

Hmmm, let me guess....Leica. You guys are starting to sound more and more like those guys.

[Greg M]

I'm guessing the next thing we'll hear is "that "other" camera has a soul, too."

[mark_chappell]

<I>I'm guessing the next thing we'll hear is "that "other" camera has a soul, too."</i><P>

 

... or its lenses produce a 'glow'. I was going to make a similar comment but my namesake

beat me to it.

[jcuknz]

Who cares what Canon do? There are plenty of other fish in the sea :-)

[mark_chappell]

<I>Who cares what Canon do? There are plenty of other fish in the sea :-)</i><P>

 

Well, in case you haven't noticed, Canon, Nikon, etc. are in fierce competition with each

other, so what company C does will certainly affect what company N does, and vice versa.

It's basicaly Darwinian, and ultimately good for us consumers.