Buying and Selling Leicas on eBay

[philip_clarke1]

</p><p>

This is intended to be a guide to either help you sell and get a good

price, or to help you avoid being scammed.

 

</p><p>

<b><u>Compensation schemes.</u></b>

 

</p><p>

It's probably best to start with working out how much money you are

risking if things go wrong.

 

</p><p>

<b>eBay Standard Purchase Protection</b>

 

</p><p>

If the item is not as described you can get £120 minus a

£15 processing fee.

 

</p><p>

<b>PayPal Protection.</b>

 

</p><p>

Buyers and Sellers can be covered up to £500 but they will

insist that if you paid by credit card you claim it back from them

first.

 

</p><p>

<b>Credit Card Protection.</b>

 

</p><p>

Your card may offer protection, but it is unlikely for purchasing an

item from a non-retail outlet.

 

</p><p>

<b>Bank Transfers.</b>

 

</p><p>

Avoid, you may be able to stop it if you find that the transaction is

fraudulent but it's not guaranteed.

 

 

</p><p>

<b><u>Common Scams.</b></u>

 

</p><p>

<b>The Phished Account.</b>

 

</p><p>

A phishing email is when an honest user gets an email saying that

they need to enter their details to confirm something on eBay or

PayPal. The conman grabs the user's account details, passwords and

then puts an item up for sale on the user's account. I recently saw

the best example of this so far, which was a M6 with 50mm on a three

day sale. Normally the sales are short because the conman needs to

get the money out of the user's account before the user realises. The

one I mentioned before was exceptional in that the Leica was

beautifully photographed and had valid serial numbers. The give-away

was that the "honest user" had only used eBay to sell

£30 items like DVD's and T-shirts only wrote in French, whereas

the advert was in English. Less than 10 minutes after the sale

finished the top two non-winning bidders were emailed saying that the

sale couldn't be completed by the winner and that one would be

protected fully by eBay for the full amount (a lie) and that the

non-winners should provide their PayPal details. I was one of the

non-winning bidders.

 

</p><p>

<b>The Fake second chance.</b>

 

</p><p>

You receive and email when you've bid on a Leica that says you are

being offered a second-chance because the winner cannot complete. But

the email says to email a different email address than eBay, and the

email doesn't appear in eBay's "My Messages" or appears

in "My Messages" but from a different id than the seller.

 

</p><p>

<b>The complete no-hoper.</b>

 

</p><p>

You receive an email saying that someone in an unspecified country

has the Leica that you are looking for and would you like to do a

deal ?

 

</p><p>

<b>The Zero Feedback seller.</b>

 

</p><p>

This happens, a person that has never sold before decides to get rid

of his Leica, the person could be genuine but will no about the

camera's history on the other hand it could be a complete scam

artist.

 

</p><p>

<b>The <i>New</i> Nigerian Scam.</b>

 

</p><p>

Not racist, this originated from Nigeria, it's a "I would like

to buy this from you for my brother's Birthday can I transfer the

money" generally through western union. Can take a couple of

forms, you get the money into your account, the camera gets picked up

by someone, then the bank pulls the money because the transfer was

fraudulent.

 

</p><p>

<b>The Fake Bank Draft.</b>

 

</p><p>

Yep Bank drafts can be faked, and the bank will pull the money from

your account and you will get nothing. Always wait a full five

working days and that the money shows up as being able to be

withdrawn from your account. (HSBC shows the money in the account on

the balance but you cannot draw against it). A Bankers Draft is just

a fancy cheque signed by a couple of bank managers, a personal cheque

is just as good or bad.

 

</p><p>

<b>Fake Bank draft variation.</b>

 

</p><p>

This time you get a bankers draft way in excess of what you asked

for, to "cover your costs" and "can you give the

extra money to my brother" when he collects the camera. See

Above.

 

</p><p>

<b>Twin Phished accounts.</b>

 

</p><p>

You get a winning bid from one account, but are paid through another.

Both accounts have probably been phished, just that the phisher

didn't manage to get both accounts together. Ebay and PayPal are

pretty well linked as they are the same company, so you should only

be paid through the winning account (although that could have been

phished at some point).

 

</p><p>

<b>Stolen Credit cards.</b>

 

</p><p>

It is possible that someone will pay with a stolen credit card

although this is rare through PayPal as the sign up process for

PayPal takes a bit of time.

 

</p><p>

<b>The Currency Scam.</b>

 

</p><p>

Check the currency you've been paid in. It is very easy to fake out

PayPal and pay in Dollars or Yen, rather than Pounds. In the case of

Dollars instead of GBP, you'll have lost 80% of your money. How easy

is it ? I can do, anyone with a medium knowledge of HTML can too.

 

</p><p>

<b>The "Let's meet" or "Can I pick it

up".</b>

 

</p><p>

Friend of mine did this with some Nikon gear, Three large men instead

of the one he was expecting. Fortunately he's very large himself and

he didn't let them through the door. They were not caught.

 

</p><p>

<b>Don't trust domain names and email addresses.</b>

 

</p><p>

Most scammers use hijacked or temporary AOL, Hotmail or Yahoo

accounts. Real professionals take over a camera shop's email server,

add a user account and pretend to be reputable (seen this once but it

will happen again).

 

</p><p>

Another variation is the buying a domain name for £5 and

running a fake camera store from it. Approximate cost to the scammer,

£25 for a week, potential profit is however many items he can

sell through eBay and take payment for before his account is closed

down.

 

</p><p>

<b>A trend.</b>

 

</p><p>

A very intelligent computer professional sets up fake websites and

phished eBay accounts, sells the service to other less literate

criminals and then walks away. You may notice that the eBay advert is

very well written, quite likely perfect, the emails you receive when

you ask any questions will be much less knowledgeable.

 

</p><p>

<b>Cash on Delivery.</b>

 

</p><p>

How do you know that you haven't bought a brick ? The delivery guy is

not going to let you open the packet until you've paid the money.

 

</p><p>

<b>Postal Scams.</b>

 

</p><p>

Some companies offer the goods for cheap and then pump up the

mandatory insurance and postage costs.

 

</p><p>

One computer company that I dealt with sold me goods and charged

£20 post and packing, then when the package arrived, DHL had

been told that I would pay the costs. DHL have a very aggressive

policy on disputes and sent the disputed delivery to a debt

collection agency. So instead of arguing with DHL or the seller, one

is left arguing with a third party agency who bought the debt.

 

</p><p>

<b>Dead people's cameras.</b>

 

</p><p>

You cannot ascertain that the camera is the seller's property, it may

have been left to someone else in the will, avoid. (unless they are

really famous and it's documented and on the News)

 

 

</p><p>

<b>Recommendations for selling.</b>

 

</p><p>

Read the scams above and try not to look like them !

</p><p>

 

Remember if the item is not "as described" you are liable

for £120.

 

</p><p>

Don't bother if you have zero feedback, sell some other things first.

That way you don't look a no-hoper scammer.

 

</p><p>

Describe the equipment fully, length of time you've had it, any

interesting dents.

 

</p><p>

Things with boxes sell better, even if they are "user" bodies and

lenses.

 

</p><p>

Photograph the serial numbers so that people can read them on the web

and check with the stolen Leica section at

http://www.leica-camera.com/ put the serial numbers in the advert

too. (Oddly enough if you tell people they can check the serial

number, they tend to go "Why is he telling me this ? what if

it's been stolen and just not reported yet?")

 

</p><p>

Photograph every angle.

 

</p><p>

Don't accept bids from people with feedback under 5 who have never

bought anything pricey. Yes there are exceptional people who buy

expensive things the first time on eBay, but they are rare.

 

</p><p>

Cancel any less than 5 feedback bids as soon as you see them. What

happens is that someone has bid £300 for your camera, a <5

feedbacker bids £400, all the people that would have bid

£350 are put off and if you cancel the bid after the sale,

you've lost £50. Under 5 feedbackers are mostly kids having a

bit of a laugh, they tend to stay away and bid on Ferraris but it's

best to be cautious.

 

</p><p>

<b>Ebay and PayPal sellers fees.</b>

 

</p><p>

(these are approximate, eBay fees vary with reserve prices and the

amount of pictures used).

 

</p><p>

If you sell an item on Ebay you will be charged a percentage of the

final value as well as a listing fees. If you are then paid through

PayPal they also take a cut. On a £500 sale this works out to

be a minimum of £17.05 to eBay and £17.20 to PayPal, and

can be more if you had a reserve price set for your item. So you only

get £465.75 The percentage that eBay takes change over

£30 and £600 so they take less. The good thing about this

is that if you sell something past £600 you pay them less.

 

</p><p>

<b>Should you split your equipment ?</b>

</p><p>

 

Splitting your kit could make you more, but calculate what you expect

to make and take away eBay's fees because eBay's fees drop if you

pass £600 and otherwise you might find that the hassle of

posting separate items, waiting for payments and the increased eBay

fees from a split sale may not make it worth while. E.g. If you sold

a camera and lens for £500 and was paid through PayPal, you

would get a maximum of £465.75, if you split the lens and body

and got £275 for one and £250 for the other, you would

not get an extra £25 because you didn't qualify for the reduced

over £300 rate, you would get a total of £488.10, an

increase of £22.35. Obviously it depends on how many times you

want to drive to the post office, wrap up separate items, if you had

the lens and body caps for both items or had to buy more, as to

whether £22 is worth it. Good news is that the buyer pays the

postage.

 

</p><p>

<b>Buying outside your country.</b>

 

</p><p>

This can work, sometimes. Normally Track and Trace delivery only

extends as far as the border of the country of origin. Also be aware

of import duties and in England 17.5% VAT on top. This is judged on

the declared value of the goods, and in some cases though you may

have bought an item at £200, Customs declare the goods to be

worth £300 and you pay the VAT on £300 first before you

get to touch the goods (which could be a brick) and then you have to

argue customs down again. On the other hand you could be lucky, buy a

camera from Hong Kong and it slips through the net. It should

probably be noted for British readers that Switzerland is not in

Europe, so imports are subject to VAT.

</p><p>

 

<b><u>Definite Do's</u></b>

</p><p>

Always contact a Seller a long time before the auction end, and ask

some questions.

</p><p>

Communicate only through "my messages", never revealing

your email address at first. I've seen one phisher starting his

emails with "I've had the camera for a year..." even

though he was entirely unrelated to the sale.

</p><p>

Any doubts, walk away, someone might get a bargain, but then they

might get fleeced.

</p><p>

Check serial numbers with Leica and photo net's registry.

</p><p>

If you are offered a second chance on anything that you bid for,

contact seller through "My Messages", the winning bidder

and bidders above you to verify that the seller is not selling the

same item to multiple people.

</p><p>

<i>About Me.</i>

</p><p>

I was a photographer, I have sold Leicas on eBay, I have been a

consultant regarding the internet and the above for seven years, but

do not work nor am affiliated with eBay or related companies. This is

a mixture of professional and personal experiences. It is factual but

variations on the scams appear everyday. I take no responsibility for

ensuring your trading safety by following the guidelines above. No I

do not check seller's authenticity for the general public.</p>

[pensacolaphoto]

This is a useful list of scams to avoid. Thanks, Philip. I know several of them already, but it doesn't hurt to see it as one complete list.

[hakon_soreide]

Now this is something every eBaying potential buyer should read. Not just for Leica goods, although Leica seems to be a favourite among scammers.<p>

Hakon Soreide<br>

Bergen, Norway<br>

<a href="http://www.hakonsoreide.com">www.hakonsoreide.com</a>

[steve_york1]

I can attest to the "Fake Second Chance" scam. Someone tried to pull that on me earlier this summer.

[rudymerz]

Phillip, first thanks for the collected information. It seams that you are from the UK and

the situation regarding Checks in the US seams to be different. AFAIK, if I receive a

Official/Certified Check and after I verified it with the issuing bank it should be like cash.

Don't verify the check with the phone number on the check though, it could be fraudulent

as well.

 

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.;)

[ben z]

I'm travelling so much of the time, selling on ebay is not practical unless I consigned it. As for buying on ebay, I've never done it and don't plan to. As for buying, I want to buy from a brick-and-mortar store like B&H or KEH that has a MBG and a warranty period if the thing is used. For the few pesos I might save buying from some stranger on the 'net it isn't worth the aggravation. That's just my opinion of course.

[paul_neuthaler]

I have bought hundreds of photographic items on Ebay -- from Hassies & Leicas to $12. sunshades. Maybe three times I have been disappointed: one seller returned all money including shipping; one seller gave me a more than generous allowance to cla a 90 elmar; the last seller was not forthcoming & I cancelled my credit card payment(that I had made through Paypal). I never cancelled it through Paypal, ignored their standard warning message -- no consequences yet! MORAL: always use a credit card -- alone or through Paypal.

[philip_clarke1]

<p>Just a few points <i>this is not ALL the scams</i> just ones that

I know of, have heard of, or been part of the investigation. The fees

bit is something many people don't consider when selling, knowing

what a scam looks like should help seller get a better price by

avoiding looking suspicious.</p>

<p>If anyone finds any more I would be very interested.</p>

[albert knapp md]

a great list of frauds. I look but never buy anything more than

$50 on the scamster.net

[billsr]

Thanks, Philip. This post is an affirmation of my decision to never go near the Bay. There are many good examples here of why I totally avoid it. There are simply too many dishonest people in the mix for me to feel comfortable there. I will find other ways to buy and sell my gear as required! Best regards, Bill

[paul_ebbe]

Certainly not specific to eBay. I've probably gotten more scam emails using web sites with classified sections than from eBay listings.

 

"It's only an accident that a fool and his money got together in the first place" -Harry Anderson (Night Court)

[bob_lazzarini]

Philip,<p>

Many thanks for the great post.<br>

As we're all finding out, regardless of whether one is the buyer or the seller, one definitely has to be informed as best possible.<p>

Cheers!

[eliot_rosen1]

OTOH, you don't have to worry about any of that crap if you don't buy on that website, where the policing is mostly left to customer, so that all the company has to do is collect their fees.

[dford]

I?ve both bought and sold Leica camera gear on ebay. I purchased a $2K TV set and I?ve recently purchased my, new to me, car via ebay site unseen for 20K. Honest and reputable business professionals all. Ebay is an amazing market place.

[paul hart]

I have conducted many transactions on eBay; I have a feedback of 244 to prove it - and not once have I been the victim of a scam. I have bought some expensive items, mainly photographic goods. I have sold likewise.

 

While great care is needed, and this post is very helpful, the cynicism of some is misplaced. There may be room for improvement on the part of those who manage eBay - there always is - but it is a remarkable resource for the honest trader as well as the crooked minority.

[philip_clarke1]

<p>

I agree that some are cynical, but forewarned is forearmed, and

things are getting worse in the Leica arena.</p>

 

<p>Buying from a reputable dealer with high feedback is probably the

best, but one of these days someone will hijack their account, so pay

by credit card.</p>

[steve salmons]

I recently had a "Message" email from an Ebay buyer saying that they had recently bought something from me but had not received the goods after 7 days.Since I have not sold anything for over a month now(and certainly not to this Ebayer) I initially thought it must just be a misdirected mail. They did not specify the goods or the item number;they did have a valid user ID. This I checked out and although valid, was low usage and had had no feedback for over a year.

As the mail did not appear in "My Messages" I forwarded it to spoof@ebay.co.uk where it was soon confirmed to be a spoof mail.

Question is: what was the point? Nowhere did it ask me for any confidential information or instruct me to follow any links . The only thing I can think is that this would have followed once I was hooked

[philip_clarke1]

<p>Steve, you probably did this but others might not. Two things to

check, a) that your account was not used to sell anything by checking

your items that have been sold. b) check what they actually did buy

recently. It could be that they bought something and the scammer gave

them your email. Google search site:ebay.co.uk for your user_id and

email address.</p>

 

<p>I am guessing that you would have got talking to the individual

and he would have eventually directed you to a fake ebay site (but

very realistic looking) to "settle your dispute" by entering your

user details and password and at that point... One can dispatch about

10,000 of these emails a day on a small server, someone's going to

take the bait.</p>

[billsr]

Being confident that I have never registered with ebay nor ever used their services, I could simply tell the "aggrieved" scam artist to go screw himself! My e-mails are often awash with such skulduggery so I refuse to jump into the pool. Best regards, Bill

[jim_mcbride]

Philip: your article is both timely and excellent. Perhaps some way could be found to place

it into Photo.net's static content so that it could serve as a permanent reference for our

members who do trade in Leica equipment on the auction site. In any event, thank you for

sharing this with us. You have performed a valuable service to our Leica-centric members.

[larry_kincaid1]

Leica "buyers" are good for scams because the amount of money is worth it and the buyers are eager. Why cheat for $200? Why trust ebay for anything not insured, which is to say for anything greater than $ 200. Keep it low and you won't get burned for much. That makes Leica products dicey. I followed a lens a month ago and ultimately discovered that I could have bought it (assuming it was legitimate) for only about $200 less than the equivalent product from say KEH or perhaps Tamarkin. The latter sources are worth the extra $200 to me, so I probably won't be tempted again in the future.