Size Difference-90/2.8 lenses

[jack_belen]

Can someone tell me why there is such a significant difference in size

and weight between the current 90/2.8 M Elmarit lens and the previous

version, the "thin" 90/2.8 Tele - Elmarit - M? Is there a significant

difference in sharpness and contrast between those two lenses and the

current Summicron APO 90/2

[albert_smith]

According to some books I have on optics, there are two designs for

longer lenses... long focus and telephoto construction. The current

Elmarit is a long focus design, and is over three inches long, while

the previous model, annotated "tele" in the nomenclature is truly a

telephoto design, and tiny.

 

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One of the design parameters that differentiate SLRs and rangefinders

is the mirror box, or lack of it. The "tele" design is harder to

make for an SLR because the last element needs to be closer to the

film plane than the mirror box allows. The current Elmarit M is

based on the last 90mm f2.8 Elmarit from the Leica R series. While

the optics are the same, the extra depth in the lens tube (the last

element is fairly deeply recessed) puts the optics where the glass

would be if it was on an SLR instead of the rangefinder. From my

experience, this lens is simply outstanding optically. On the other

hand, for me, it is too big for the petite camera body.

 

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I have seen some good results from the 90mm f2.0 APO/ASPH, but when I

look at the result from my Elmarit M, it is hard to imagine how much

sharper a slide can look. If you don't need the speed, the f2.8 is

one of the best lenses in the Leica line up when price is factored

in. Spend the 800 Dollars you save on film. You will never feel

slighted by the images from the Elmarit.

[andrew_schank]

Jack, the 90mm f2.8 Elmarit is probably the best lens I have ever

used. It it pushing the limit of optical perfection in my opinion,

and this is bore out with the stellar MTF curve at Photodo. Mine is

nearly flawless even wide open. I aimed it at a resolution chart and

it easily separated the 80LPMM boxes at f2.8. I can pick out the

images in my album shot with that lens. Yes, it is a bit on the long

side for a 90mm. I originally had the tele Elmarit M, and the cement

between some elements failed. I was told it eventually happens to

every single one of them. I know 2 others who owned the lens and had

the same trouble. Because of this, the contrast was lousy on mine.

I'd never recommend one of them to anyone because of the inner

element troubles. I'm sure someone here has one that didn't have any

trouble with it, but it is a known promblem. Something to do with the

type of cement used.

[sergio_ortega]

Jack,

 

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Along with my current 50mm Summicron, the 90mm 2.8 Elmarit M is the

sharpest lens I have. I am always astounded by the results,

particularly with color transparency films. The images are so

sharp and crisp, they look like they have been etched into the

emulsion. Though, as Al already mentioned, I only wish it were as

compact and handled as nicely as the 90mm 2.8 Tele-Elmarit.

 

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I once tested a used example of the smaller Tele-Elmarit. I took my

camera to the shop selling it and made a number of exposures at all

apertures, both handheld and on a tripod; real world subjects...no

test targets or lpm stuff. The last ten or twelve exposures on that

same roll were made with my own Elmarit M. Well, I did not buy that

tele-Elmarit. It just did not have that incredible sharpness I'd come

to expect from the Elmarit M.

 

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I've never used the Apo 90/2, but it seems like it would be a real

handful on the M bodies.

 

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Good luck, Sergio.

[jay_.]

As someone pointed out, the current 90/2.8-M is optically identical

to the last R version, and so it had to be configured with the same

back focus as on the SLR. Without the auto diaphragm, though, it is

much thinner in diameter than the R lens (fortunately!). I own both

the M and R versions and they are superb. The performance of the R

version at normal distances is virtually indistinguishable from the

100 APO Macro. I have used the M version on a Visoflex as a macro

lens and it isn't too shabby there, either. The Tele-Elmarit had 2

versions, "fat" and "skinny". I owned both but now just the "skinny",

mine is from 1974. I've heard of internal hazing problems with these

lenses but I have never actually seen one in bad condition other than

many with front wipe marks from owners who chose to believe that

Leica front coatings are un-scratchable. My sample, in comparison to

the current version, has noticeably lower contrast at f2.8 which

improves some at f4 and by f5.6 on down the two lenses are very hard

to discern from one another. If you've got the room (and budget) for

both lenses, the skinny Tele makes a great pocket lens whenever light

weight is paramount and f5.6 is sufficient (hiking for landscapes,

flash work at parties, etc.). If you are only going to own one lens,

get the current 90/2.8. At around $800 used, it's the best bargain

of all M's. The 90 APO Summicron is a personal choice. It's

obviously better at f2; from f2.8 on I'd sure want to do a shoot-off

for myself before I pull out my credit card. Also it's about the

same size as the previous Summicron, and I found that too big and

heavy for my taste on an M body.

[art_karr]

Andrew:

 

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<b> I'm sure someone here has one that didn't have any trouble

with it, but it is a known promblem.</b>

 

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I plead guilty to that.

 

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Art

[andrew_schank]

Art, have you shined a flash light into yours recently? Just kidding-

-I'm glad yours hasn't atrophied like mine and several others I knew

did. The repair work is very costly if it does start seperating.

When I looked into the repair costs is when I found out it was a very

common problem. One of the big used Leica sellers told me he really

scrutinizes that particular lens if someone is trying to sell one to

him because he's seen quite a few bad ones come in. Something organic

in the cement was supposed to be the culprit, and whatever it was,

Leica altered the way they put the next generation Elmarit together

and its has not happened to those lenses.

[john_collier]

One other comment on the 90/2.8 Tele-Elmarit-M is that it is

prone to flare. Backlight or even bright white tones will cause it

flare. Buy the Elmarit-M, it is a much better performer, especially

wide open. I switched and I have no regrets at all. It is bigger

than than the Tele-Elmarit but stil very small by SLR standards.

 

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Cheers

[msitaraman]

The Elmarit M has simply astounding performance. A real winner. It

may be large and bulky compared to the thin Elmarit, but it is on par

with my 50 Summicron for performance. Can't imagine it getting any

better. And the sliding lens hood is first rate for controlling

flare. Extending it makes the ergonomics of the lens much better.

 

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My only gripe is the stiff focusing relative to the short focal

lengths-perhaps an intentional feature to allow for more precise

rangefinder focusing with the Leica M teles? It certainly makes

follow focus in portraiture difficult...

[andrew_schank]

Yes, the focusing is stiff, and I thoughty at first something was

wrong with mine. I found out they are all that way. Here's another

oddity with that lens: When mine is set at f2.8, the aperture does

not open 100% fully, plus the aperture ring turns past 2.8 a tiny bit

on the barrel. I contacted Leica and they said the lenses are

individually calibrated for f2.8, so mine is actually an f2.6 or

something wide open (past the 2.8 stop click), but Leica goes ahead

and puts the f2.8 click stop where f2.8 is exactly. I thought that

was pretty cool.

[Rob F.]

Jack, I have the original 90mm Elmarit for the M series. It is the

one with the removable lens head so that it can be used in a separate

focusing mount on the Visoflex. With this lens on my M2, and the M2

on a tripod and loaded with Kodachrome 25, I took a picture of barges

on the Mississippi river that has edges so sharp they look like they

were sliced in with an Xacto knife. It's one sharp lens.

 

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Regards,

[robin_smith]

Like many, I am disappointed with the size of the current Elmarit-M,

but it is a superb lens, no question. I am not enjoying the R version

nearly as much for some reason. I am not sure I have really seen any

practical difference between it and the Summicron-R and it is a stop

slower. At one time I owned a chrome "fat" Tele-Elmarit and found it

to be superb - beautiful images. Perhaps lower contrast and maybe not

as razor sharp wide open, but I had absolutely no complaints. I think

the Tele-Elmarit is a much better size fit with a Leica M I have to

say, but no one doubts the high quality of the Elmarit-M. By the way,

a superb lens is the original Elmar 90mm f4 (another long focus

lens). Slow but excellent quality and much thinner and lighter than

the Elmarit. The later 4 element variety is particularly good and

tends to command a high price. Both the fat tele-ELmarit and a click

stopped Elmar have, to my eyes, a much more beautiful finish than any

modern black Leica lens - not that this helps you to take photos....

[kens]

I used to use the late version of the Tele-Elmarit. The images were

ok - not spectacular. And the handling really bothered me. If you

look closely, the focusing and aperature rings are placed far forward

on the lens - this drove me nuts. Focusing stiffness was about the

same as the current Elmarit, and the small diameter of the focusing

ring all combined to make the lens handling very distracting for me.

I was forever groping for the rings. The whole hood arrangement was

also unstisfactory for me.

 

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I'm happy with the current Elmarit redesign. It solves the problems

of the Tele for me, and gives me great images, too. I wouldn't go

back to the Tele.

[jack_belen]

I appreciate all of the excellent input. So it seems to me that the

consensus is that, despite the factors of cost and size, the current

version of the 90/2.8 is the choice