Fake military Leica question

[stephen_ascherl]

Do any of these folks who make up fake WWII German military Leica

from Russian cameras ever fake a true Leica from the wartime era into

a military version, and is it possible to tell if the legitimate but

non military Leica has been made to look like a military issue?

[john_shriver]

Oh, sure, there are fakes of WW-II Leicas, but made starting with real Leica cameras. Plenty of them. I think I've heard estimates that about half of them out there are fakes! How hard can it be to do a little extra engraving and fill it in with black paint? Heck, you could even use an engraving pantograph to copy the exact lettering style from a real one.

 

Anyone buying this sort of camera without a traceable provenance takes a big risk of being had.

[lee hamiel]

John: I think what Stephen is trying to ascertain is whether or not anyone has taken say a legit IIIf & then engraved it to duplicate say a military issed IIIf.

 

I don't know Stephen but nothing would shock me!

[zeos_386sx]

It is possible to electroplate brass with chrome. Does anyone know if a chrome body can be electroplated with brass?

 

I don't know if Leica ever painted a chrome body but I doubt it. To fake a painted Leica body would require filling in and smoothing the old serial number, brass plating the chrome body, re-engraving an appropriate serial number, and then painting the camera.

 

I can think of two ways to detect a painted fake created by using an original Leica body of the same type. First, test a small piece of the paint on the subject camera and make certain it was the same type as paint used by Leica. Two, open the camera and in an unexposed area scrape into the brass surface. If you reach chrome....well...

[zeos_386sx]

I just read that the chrome can be acid stripped. After that I assume it would be easy to electroplate with brass.

[huw_finney]

There is (was) a fake 250 on ebaY, nice job by the look of it.

[zeos_386sx]

Mr. Finney,

Given the number of fakes floating around it appears that the crooks are in a very competitive field. Given the prices being paid for some of these cameras (and the competition) I would be surprised if they didn't do their best work.

[winfried_buechsenschuetz1]

I don't know about fake military Leicas based on real Leicas. But there are quite a few 'Werks-Leica' (Leicas for internal use) which are faked. There are also fakes of post-war german government owned Leicas based on real Leicas.

 

To be sure, you should contact the Leica archives, they have complete records where, when and to whom any of their batches was shipped.

[canfred]

Chrome is removed by reverse electroplating ,no need to plate over chrome. Any engraving can be copied , much easier now with CNC.

Old engraving is filled with silver solder alloy, this can only be detectet using X-ray.Paint baking processes as used by Leica are not difficult at all.

The best Leica copies come from a small number of specialist tool workshops in Germany. Even experts are fooled , and it is luctrative.

[zeos_386sx]

I enjoyed Mr. Kaplan's comment in another thread...

 

"With prices like these, and Zorkies bringing big bucks from those who don't know better, perhaps Leica's salvation would be in making black paint genuine "counterfeit" M cameras."

 

While that comment was made in jest there is actually some merit to it. Leica could make accurate and legitimate copies of old cameras for collectors. I believe someone in the Leica rangefinderforum had an "a la carte" IIIc/f/? made up.

 

If Leica were to offer reproductions of its old classics it would make Leica money while relieving the worry buyers have about authenticity.

[al_kaplan1]

It wasn't really in jest! If Leica were to make a run of perhaps 1,000 IIIc bodies, maybe more, in plain ol' chrome finish I'm sure they'd be gone within a year at most, as would a run of IIIg bodies. And all at premium prices, too. If Leica is getting tagged with the reputation of a company stuck in the past why not take advantage of it?

[eliot_rosen1]

Yes, it is possible to take a genuine WWII era Leica IIIc and add engravings, change serial numbers, strip the chrome and paint gray etc. I'm not sure if (as Manfred suggests) that would be very profitable because: a) it would have to be very good to fool an expert or a collector with a lot of expertise in this area (like me) and b) the cost of the camera combined with the expertise and labor involved to do it really would cut into profits from sales. I have no doubt that it can be done, but would it be worth the effort (I mean if someone were so inclined)?

 

For example, a chrome IIIb or IIIc Luftwaffen Eigentum camera alone is worth maybe about $ 2000 in the current market. Would it be worth it to do a really good fake of all of the stampings and engravings?

 

A IIIcK gray paint Leica with military engravings is worth significantly more than that, but the IIIcK civilian gray paint is already worth about $ 2500-3000, so if you wanted to fake that and make any money, you would probably have to start with a regular IIIc chrome and make it into a gray paint IIIcK and then put the engravings on, a lot of work. Not only that, but an expert repair person could tell you if the camera really has a K-type (ball-race) shutter mechanism.

 

I have seen a few Leitz WWII military cameras that were genuine Leica IIIc's with fake military engravings. In those cases it was not really hard to tell that they were counterfeit because either the engravings were not well done or the fonts used did not match any of the handful of different fonts utilized by Leica (all of which are well-documented in Jim Lager's Volume I on Leica cameras).

[zeos_386sx]

Mr. Kaplan,

 

I apologise for misunderstanding your intent. I think you have made an astute suggestion. It would solve many problems and I hope Leica listens to you.

 

Right now, Leica is attempting to "bridge" the gap between old and new technologies. While they are attempting to embrace the new it would seem wise to continue embracing the old. It is clear that there is much money to be made in the old...

[al_kaplan1]

No apology required! What really hurts is that I used to shoot regularly with a Leica III-CK thjat had no military marks on it, just worn grey paint, which I purchased in 1963 at Walter Gray Photorama in Hollywood, Fl for $40 in 1963. i used it for perhaps 8 or 9 years and sold it to a collector for about $100.

[zeos_386sx]

OUCH! I guess you could always tell him you've changed your mind!

[al_kaplan1]

That was an era when the young techno-freaks were jumping on the SLR bandwagon, trading Prakticas for Pentax H2's for H3v's for Spotmatics or Nikon F's for F Photomics for F2's for F3's, every year a new camera or system, chasing the will-o-the-whisp into The Future! Making fun of the old fuddy duddies with their rangefinder Leicas. Sound familiar?