Photography ban on PATH, MTA?

[rmdavis]

May be a bit of topic, but this is the forum I usually roam in, and I

know there are quite a few New York photographers around here (Liu, et

al)/

 

While attempting to photograph the copper facade of the Hoboken

Lackawanna railroad terminal (where the PATH and the Lightrail have

their "hub" these days) I was stopped by an NJ Transit cop and given

immediate static. The transit cop said that photography was banned,

and then threatened to "Take my camera." Keep in mind that the

interaction, upon her instigation, was immediately at interrogation

level. She approached me (with my little SLR) with the hand alreayd

on the gun, so to speak.

 

When I asked her what statute she was enforcing, of course she had no

idea. She could cite no law, no sign, nothing. BAsically it was,

"stop taking pictures or I will handcuff yo and break your camera."

 

Is this against the law? Is there in fact a ban on MTA or port

authority photography? If so, then what do you say about getting

20-30 folks together to get arrested at a PATH station next Friday?

[mawz]

Given the police response to similar tactics by cyclists (See the Critical Mass rides since last August), I wouldn't try that particular protest tactic unless I had a lot of free time, money and a VERY good lawyer.

[sliu]

Stay away from sensitive locations. There are many places more interesting than

railroad terminals.

 

Be safe by all means.

[michael_spencer3]

Ryan,

 

It doesn't really matter whether there is a ban on photography or not. There certainly is a heightened interest in 'suspicious' behavior and that is in the eye of the beholder. When the beholder is also armed you really are in a tough spot. One rule of thumb is that taking a picture of something that most tourists do not take pictures of is a 'suspicious' activity. So there you go.

 

As a guide to appropriate behavior keep in mind what happened to the guy on the London underground. There are lots and lots of weapons in the US transit system and they will certainly start to go off one of these days. Hope you aren't around to see it.

[rmdavis]

I don't have a lot of free time, or money. But I have never, in my 30 some years of life in the United States, been treated by a police officer in that manner. Not only is the point stupid, but the manner in which it was made was basically arbitrary, and proudly arbitrary. I am a cop. I have a gun. You don't, so there. The last time a cop took that attitude with me was in Jugoslavia. I didn't expect that here.

 

So it makes me angry, angry enough to cause a stink about it. I am a middle aged white-guy republican, and I seriously considered calling her bluff and getting thrown in the can to make apoint about civil liberties. But then I figured, wouldn't it be better if there were a bunch of normal (other than liking photography) folks there to make the same point?

[breakaway]

Have you watched the recent movie "Crash"? Though it's about racial discrimination, but it talks a lot about the authority that we thrust into the hands of law enforcers post 911. If you were to think further, I believe that what brought about this situation is the very nature of terrorism. It can be anywhere and everywhere. It's the fear (be it instilled fear or real fear of terrorism) that allow such things to happen.

 

I understand your concern for civil liberties but would the mass give up "security" for your liberty?

[yog_sothoth]

Being legally right wouldn't save your camera or keep you out of jail for a few days.

[rmdavis]

Riuje, there is no security issue here. Pictures of the facade are available on the web. Just google "lackawanna hoboken terminal" and then look at the images. Satellite map imagery of Hoboken is available on google, including the train station. I am talking about using a digital camera of reasonable size. Photographing stained glass and copper. Not trains, not switch boxes, none of that. This is not a matter of me trading my libert for general security. I took the light rail from Jersey city to Hoboken, and was searched while entering the train. I have no problem with that. My problem is that my liberty to take a picture of a publicly viewable space is being traded, not for more security, but to bolster the ego of someone who obviously enjoys threatening the public with the power given to them by their uniform and by their gun. If this guard had asked me politely to desist, then I would likely have done so, but I really shoudln't have regardless.

 

So what hapens now? Are subways and trains permanently off limits to photographers?

[vivek iyer]

I would play it safe if that is the current culture/custom of your local law enforcement. Contrast this with the London police- they actually encourage photography. Just don't attempt to run!

[mfophotos]

This is going to be more common. Cops interpreting what photographers can do are

usually so full of shit that aside from the hassle it would be, anything would be thrown

out in court and the following applies

1. illegal seizure of your belongings

2. Nobody has changed our ammendments to the constitution, despite what the cops and

rent a cops think

3. If you are on PUBLIC property, you can photograph anything you want

 

Carry a business card with you with your pertinent information, hand it to them and say,

here is anything you need to know about me. If you wish to arrest me for lawful behavior,

then my lawyer would only be to happy to have the ACLU take your sorry ass to court for

violating my constitutional rights.

 

You might not want to do the latter... There is a web site devoted to photographers

rights..

 

http://www.aclu.org/Files/Files.cfm?ID=10042&c=184

[cenelsonfoto]

Bottom line: was/is this public or private property?

 

Answer that and one has the answer.

 

Private? I would politely accept their asking me to refrain from photographing further.

 

Public property? Hell will freeze first - I'd stand my ground, firmly, but respectfully. They have no authority to seize my camera or film/memory card under any circumstances. They cannot force me to delete images from my camera, laws be damned. (If they did, I could likely recover them all anyhow.)

 

Do I stand a chance of injury or arrest? Sure. But I'm a law-abiding US citizen who does not take a liking to tyrants in any uniform, right? I'm not liable for any of your actions, BTW, this is simply my way of dealing with rent-a-pigs and abusive cops. (I'm the son of a former-policeman, FWIW.)

 

I stand up for myself when it is time to stand up; I don't expect anybody else to do it for me.

[cenelsonfoto]

Mark - you and I are separated at birth... musta been posting simultaneously.

 

Rock on, my friend.

[breakaway]

We all understand that there is really no threat to security here when you photograph stained glass and copper. Not to say that the law enforcer was not trying to be egoistic but post 911, law enforcers have taken a stand of, "I rather be wrong now than be responsible for what the terrorist have done."

[sliu]

Ryan, you should calmly explain to her what (and why) you are photographing. Don't

feel hostile about it. Arguing with a law enforcement official about law is dangerous.

 

When I took this picture last summer with our 24Hr New York gang, my tripod

mounted, black tape wrapped black plastic box (pinhole Holga) attracted the

attention of two cops. I explained to them what it is and what I was doing. They

stayed with me for the whole 15 minute exposure. A friend in our group made some

comments like yours and one cop said to me: "ask your friends stop making those

comments, we are not happy about it. We are doing our job." I apologized for my

friend's attitude and showed appreciation to the cop's understanding and cooperation

to my photographic project.

 

The whole incident ended peacefully. I had what I wanted and they did their job. Had

either side shown hostility, the outcome would be different.<div></div>

[battra92]

My mother actually was threatened by a "rent a cop," you know those moron security guards playing dress up at the malls. She took a picture of Santa Claus and he ran over to try and take my camera that she was using.

 

Personally I think it's a case of an over ambitious cop going after any "suspicious." I guess being an amateur photographer is suspicious. Funny thing is, I've taken several pictures down at my local freight yard since I love trains. Of course maybe it's because I look more like a photography student and I usually have a TLR or some other such camera. If I was a spy or terrorist or something, I'd probably have a small digital or something, not an old Yashica.

[neal_shields]

My particular photographic interests are things like bridges, rail yards, buildings etc. So 9/11 put a crimp in my style.

 

However, we all need to be aware that any time that the police have to spend with us, may be time that they might have caught a bomber.

 

I don't want to go to bed some night wondering if my actions inadvertantly aided a terrorist that killed inocent men women and children.

 

I was stopped one day from photographing a powerplant. The guard and I struck up a conversation and had a pleasant visit. Later I realized that I missed a very go opertunity to make his picture which as he was a WWII veterian would have probably been better than the powerplant anyway.

 

Maybe we all need to carry mirrors in our camera bags. As a salesman, I have found that most often the attitude that you get is a reflection of the attitude that you project.

[rmdavis]

I understand what you're saying S.Liu, and that is usually how I deal with jsut that sort of situation. Last year I was photographing the old Powerhouse in Jersey City when a JC Cop stopped to check me out. He was cool, I was cool, there was no problem, and, as in your case, he hung around until I was done. I was even more "suspicious" looking in that case, as I was using a Pentacon with a big 300mm lens, a tripod, etc.

 

At the Hoboken Terminal, let me make it clear that this is not rhetorical, but literally true, while holding my dinky ass Fuji digital, the cop came up to me with her weapon strap cleared and her hand on her gun, and immediately got in my face. Before I said word one. By the way, it was a hot day so Iwas wearing shorts and a T Shirt. No baggy jackets, etc. So this isn't a matter of a police officer "doing their job." I could have been a tourist from Peoria, rather than a local resident. I was certainly NOT any sort of threat.

[mfophotos]

I posted the wrong lisn...the one i gave was IF you are arrested... This one is for a

summary of photographers' rights..

 

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

 

published by an attorney, so it MUST be true!

 

There is a forum on APUG dedicated to this as well. I was yelled at by some guards last

year for even LOOKING at a federal building in Manhattan because I had a camera around

my neck. It really soured me. NO PHOTOGRAPHS! They yelled. It was a typically ugly

federal building, but I was trying to figure out what the sculpture was in fron t of it. I

should have told them that the sculpture must be representative of our trashing of civil

liberties by people with thick skulls and thin skin...

[cenelsonfoto]

<i>"I rather be wrong now than be responsible for what the terrorist have done."</i><p>

It's this sort of Machiavellian bullshit that farts in the face of civil liberties, of justice, and of freedom for all.<p>

This person you quote has no business carryign firearms or "protecting" the peace ANYWHERE!<P>

I will go one step further - IF it had been one of my family members the British pigs murdered, they could count me and my remaining southern, backwoods, hatefilled brethren to contend with.<p>

I will end this post as such, and you can answer to yourself: <p>

Is it better to imprison many innocent men in order to prevent one guilty man from slipping through?

[cenelsonfoto]

Neal - regarding the mirror comment... read my point about being polite. It is key to winning in this type of SNAFU. Any sign of hostility will give the bully his bit to champ. Always remain polite - FIRM, but polite.

[michael_spencer3]

I certainly am in sympathy with Ryan's problem. I feel the same way; I also wish I could throw myself into jail so the ACLU could use my case to protect freedom of action for all my fellow citizens.

 

But the reality of law enforcement gets in the way of that dream. First, the cops take you in. They can screw up the charges, do all sorts of things, but they can take you in. Now you need a lawyer to get you out. If there was no basis for the arrest, your lawyer will probably get the charges dropped. Once the charges are dropped, your odds for a successful suit on 'false arrest' go way, way down.

 

So what does it accomplish to send yourself to jail? Not much, the justice system folks don't give a s**t one way or the other; the newspapers don't care much about this unless there are 'extras' like race issues. Most non-photographers would probably think you are nuts: "who needs another picture of that stupid facade?" Your state and federal legislators are busy as can be trading civil rights for 'security' so they are no help, either.

 

Oh well, at least Ryan has a place like this to vent.

[mike_elek]

When you think of it, they should actually encourage more photography, so if something does happen there would be a greater chance of catching the idiot's image on camera. Instead, they'll have to rely on someone's notoriously poor memory of a fleeting glimpse of some suspicious person.

[mfophotos]

No matter what, politeness is a good idea. Sometimes we may have to check what we

really want to say, but then if we don't it's the Flubber prinicple (remember Flubber?) -- it

may bounce back and go in directions you did not anticipate. So keep a cool head, be

polite, and carry the photographer's rights with you. If a rent a cop hassles you, ask to see

his/supervisor. If a real cop just wants to check you out, engage him/her in a friendly

conversation. Defuse the situation before it starts. If they persist in harassing you, then

get their name and badge numer, move along, and go to the local station. I know they

they are trying to do their job, but cops usually have better things to do than harass

photographers. Thankfully I live in the midwest, where we are less prone to such things.

[stephen_allan]

<em>However, we all need to be aware that any time that the police have to spend with us, may be time that they might have caught a bomber.</em><p>

 

I think that one is more for the officers/rent-a-cops conscience, than the photographers. They shouldn't be hassling easy targets just for the buzz!

[mskovacs]

First they came for the Jews<br>

And I did not speak out -<br>

Because I was not a Jew.

<p>Then they came for the communists<br>

And I did not speak out -<br>

Because I was not a communist.

<p>Then they came for the trade unionists<br>

And I did not speak out -<br>

Because I was not a trade unionist.

<p>Then they came for me -<br>

And there was no-one left<br>

To speak out for me.<p>

Pastor Niemoeller, 1938