Question about Carl Zeiss lenses..

[- shtativ]

Hallo!

 

How on appearance to define where Carl Zeiss lens has been made - in

West-Germany or East-Germany? For example, here this:

http://photofile.ru/album.php?id=1252933

 

Can somebody tell me serial numbers CZ optics after 1949? I shall be

very grateful for the answer!

 

With the best regards!

-= Shtativ

[vincenzo_maielli]

Hi, dear friend. Before the II W.W., the Carl Zeiss factories are located in Jena and Dresden, in eastern Germany, called Prussia. When the Soviet Army defeated the German Army and went in Prussia, the entire factories of Carl Zeiss was dismantled and transported, by train and trucks, in the Arsenal Zavod (Kiev Ukraine), for make the Contax rangefinder copies called Kiev (from 1945 to 1980).

In the June of 1945, in hundreds of technicians, engineers, workers and his families escaped in the land of Germany controlled by USA Army and founded the Carl Zeiss Oberckochen, near Stuttgart.

From 1945 to middle sixties we have two Carl Zeiss products: Carl Zeiss AG in western Germany and Carl Zeiss Jena (only lenses) in eastern Germany. In the middle of sixties the Carl Zeiss AG (western) won the civil action for the legal use of the Carl Zeiss trade mark. In the eastern Germany remained only the CZJ trade mark, until the 1989, when the fall of the Wall are cancelled the last traces of the DDR communist state.

Ciao.

 

Vincenzo Maielli Italy

[dan_fromm2]

Shtativ, your lens is engraved Carl Zeiss Jena so it was made in Jena, not Oberkochen. And it is engraved with a red "T," so it is coated and almost certainly post-WWII. DDR, not BRD.

 

The Vade Mecum gives this list of CZJ (DDR) serial numbers:

 

1945-1949 3.0-3.2 million. Initially these were calibrated with the focal length in centimeters.<p>

1949-1952 3.2-3.47 million<p>

1952-1955 347,000-4.0 million From here focal lengths were given in millimeters.<p>

1955-1958 4.0-5.0 million<p>

1958-1961 5.0-6.0 million<p>

1961-1964 6.0-6.7 million<p>

1964-1967 7.0-8.0 million<p>

1967-1970 8.0-9.0 million<p>

1970-1975 9.0-10.0 million.<p>

[michael schub]

Vincenzo,

 

The Zeiss situation at the end of WWII was far more complicated than that. First the Russians didn't move all Carl Zeiss factories to the Soviet Union. Second there were many Zeiss factories in other cities than Dresden and Jena - remember Zeiss had acquired many camera companies at the beginning of the 20th century.

 

Basically Zeiss Ikon made cameras at various locations around Germany and Carl Zeiss Jena made lenses and instruments.

 

At the end of the war the Soviets wanted the Contax camera and the facilities to make them as war reparations (they also claimed the Ikonta type cameras). The Dresden plant that made the Contax was heavily damaged and that combined with clumsy efforts to dismantle the plant and ship the machinery to Russia led to the initial failure of the effort. Using drawings and dies stored near Dresden the Soviets moved everything to Jena and had Zeiss technicians build Contax production lines in Jena which were then dismantled and shipped to Kiev along with German technicians and any parts and partially assembled cameras the Soviets could get their hands on. This was the birth of the Kiev 35mm RF camera.

 

Many Zeiss plants in West and East Germany were left untouched and Jena was soon back in production.

[- shtativ]

Thanks, friends!

 

It is tremendous excursion in the past! I even had a desire to read through more about optics and history Carl Zeiss. Advise me the book about it or the best information from words of people?

 

I only have not understood - the basic experts on glass have remained in Carl Zeiss AG or Carl Zeiss Jena? Somebody tried to compare lenses of these firms? Personally I heard good responses about optics CZJ, but for some reason I am not to trust production of East Germany.. It would be still very interesting to know in what part of Germany there was a warehouse with sand of which did lenses. In fact at division of Germany someone one of two should search for new sources for deliveries of sand. And change of raw material for manufacturing a lens is often reflected in character of the image.

[pshinkaw]

Shtativ:

 

Primary source accounts from eyewitnesses or participants are hard to find. I accidentally stumbled on this research paper several years ago and have kept it bookmarked. For some reason it won't show up on Google searches.

 

http://www.schott.com/ft/german/download/sonstiges7.pdf

 

It relates the story of the workers who were moved to the USSR to operate the Soviet appropriated Schott Glass Works, which I believe was one of the Zeiss optical plants discussed above. It's an interesting paper.

 

-Paul

[richard_s.]

Vincenzo, I noticed several erroneous postings about German camera

history from you, but didn´t bother to correct them until

now. This last one is so misleading, I can no longer stand that much

desinformation.<br>

<br>

Zeiss  had factories all over Germany,  for example

in Stuttgart, Berlin, Dresden or in it´s Headquarter in Jena.<br>

<br>

Dresden is the capital of Saxonia and never was in "Prussia".<br>

<br>

Jena is a city in Thuringa not "Prussia".<br>

<br>

Prussia is on the Baltic coast line, much of it is known today as

"Polish Baltic coast". It´s capitol is Königsberg,

today rebaptised, after the Communist mass murderer Kalinin, as

"Kaliningrad".<br>

<br>

At the end of the war Jena was first occupied by US troops, who

immediately started to loot in a organized manner the Zeiss facilities

(Operation Paper clip). The stole drawings, trade secrets, easily

transportable machinery, including the Zeiss lens collection (there is

a picture in one of Andreas Feininger books showing him photographing

in New York with an Zeiss fisheye-lens stolen from Jena) and kidnapping

the most important Zeiss personnel. <br>

<br>

All this had to be done in a hurry, since Thuringa and Jena was to

become part of Soviet occupation zone.<br>

<br>

When the Soviets took over, the looting continued. They considered the

Contax and their Zeiss lens line as the most advanced piece of camera

technology they could lay their hands on. The SLR Exakta was "off

limits" for them, because the company had Dutch owners and the Commies

didn´t want to upset its allies.<br>

<br>

Since the US forces had stolen most of the important construction

drawings, papers, the Bolsheviks first demanded a  set of new

plans to be drawn. After completion of plans, restoration of

productions facilities and a test run, the whole Zeiss camera and lens

facility was dismantled and shipped to Kiev including it´s

kidnapped Zeiss workforce.<br>

<br>

Of course Zeiss, like all other German companies, lost it´s

foreign assets as well and not only in Soviet occupied countries.<br>

<br>

Michael, you were talking of "war reparations"; reparations are payed

from one <u>country</u>

to another <u>country</u>.

<br>

<br>

Zeiss is a <u>private</u>,

not state owned, company, their intellectual-property, trade secrets,

facilities, etc. are <u>private

property</u>. No occupation force

has, by international law, any say about the private property of the

population of the occupied country. <br>

<br>

Shtativ, you asked <i> -

the basic experts on glass have remained in Carl Zeiss AG or Carl Zeiss

Jena?</i> <br>

<br>

The main body of trained Zeiss workers remained in the east. Only a

small number of experts moved to the west, who latter had to train

(time consuming) a complete new workforce to meet the demanding Zeiss

quality standards. <i><br>

</i><br>

The US plans for Germany were at first even more grim than the Soviet

ones. More then 3 years passed before the "Realpolitik" fraction in US

politics gained the upperhand and ousted the "Commie-Lover and

German-Basher" fraction.<br>

<br>

So, it took a long time to build Zeiss (West), and despite the looting

in Jena and Dresden, Zeiss (East) was first to continue production.

Zeiss (East) provided Zeiss (West) and others like Rollei with lenses

until a similar infrastructure has been build in the west. <br>

<br>

<i>Personally I heard good

responses about optics CZJ, but for some reason I am not to trust

production of East Germany..</i> <br>

<br>

Skilled workforce was crucial for lens production or demanding

precision machinery like the Contax. Such did exist  in large

numbers in the East, but not in sufficient number for Zeiss (West);

other West-German camera and lens manufactors were relative small.<br>

<br>

East German lens and camera production was leading worldwide up to the

1950s, when the corrosive effects of  Communist-dictatorship

started to show.<br>

<br>

Zeiss (West) started late and could never

compensate for the lost workforce or production facilities, but managed

to keep the quality standard high.<br>

[michael schub]

"Zeiss is a private, not state owned, company, their intellectual-property, trade secrets, facilities, etc. are private property. No occupation force has, by international law, any say about the private property of the population of the occupied country."

 

Richard,

 

I'm certain you know laws, international or otherwise (as well as history) are made by the winners.

 

The legal questions are extraordinary complex when you consider that the Zeiss Foundation was chartered by a kingdom, the Zeiss facilities were still governed by Nazi laws at the end of the war, the four power agreements controlled much about property rights (including the claim of the Soviets that Zeiss committed war crimes and their property forfeit) and of course the communist German regime had its own laws. Never forget that under East German law the Zeiss Foundation ceased to exist and no longer controlled the Jena works by 1948 and while experts differ as to the date the shipment of the Jena Contax production line to Kiev occurred at around the time that Zeiss Jena was no longer a private company.

[- shtativ]

Wow! Thanks, Richard! I did not know, that it is so interesting and.. So it is sad.. Such legendary firm with such wrong end.. It is very strongly insulting. War is not only death of people�

 

 

 

The tremendous document! Thanks Paul! It`s fantastic!!! You will not be against if I use it for publication in a network approximately in a year? Naturally, the reference to you as the primary source it is obligatory. If you will tell is not present, I promise, I shall keep this document only at myself on a hard disk.

 

 

 

There was one ambiguity is a sand for lenses. I heard hearing (I do not think, that is the truth but to listen does not stir), that Carl Zeiss used sand for the lenses which was rich rare elements. Whence it to take? Germans carried to Brazil or Argentina (precisely I do not remember) products, and back loaded barges sand that the ships were steady by storm. This sand was stored and used for construction of lenses. All it is no more, than hearing. And suddenly is it the truth? Who managed valuable sand about which legends go?

 

 

 

Also tell to me, my friends, whence you know all it? Allow me to read it too :-)

[michael schub]

Paul,

 

Interesting that the author of that report is bleating about the forced removal of Schott employees by the victors but makes no mention of the use of slave labor by Zeiss. Two wrongs don't make a right but that is just bad taste and typical of the older generation in Germany. If I had my druthers I would rather be forcibly removed to West Germany (or even Kiev) than set to making fuses at Zeiss Dresden and starved to death. Give me a brake!

[richard_s.]

<i>I'm certain you know laws,

international or otherwise (as well as history) are made by the

winners. </i><br>

<br>

No, I don´t, but I  understand, that your reasoning

was shared by Hitler.<br>

<br>

<i>The legal questions are

extraordinary complex...<br>

<br>

</i>Whats complex on armed robbery

and murder?<br>

[pshinkaw]

Shtativ:

 

It's not my document so I can't give permission for it's use. It is published by Schott and is on their German website.

 

Michael:

 

There a lot of interesting things about that period of time that defy rational explanations. I'm not even going to try. For example, both Ford Motor Company and General Motors (Ford-Germany and Opel) manufactured machinery and vehicles for the German army during the war using slave labor. When their factories were bombed by the Allies, they were paid compensation by the United States government. Ford even held at least one executive level meeting in a neutral country (Spain or Portugal) so that the German executives could meet with their American counterparts. All of this while the grunts in the foxholes were ordered to shoot each other on sight.

 

-Paul

[www.antiquecameras.net]

Carl Zeiss fans - here is my new page on CZ Contax RF Lenses<p>

 

http://members.aol.com/dcolucci/zc.htm<p>

 

thanks<p>

Dan

[michael schub]

Richard,

 

You purport to cite international law and when I cite conflicting bodies of law that bear on the issue you come back with slogans - whatever floats your boat.

 

As for the realpolitik of international law, it's not for nothing that the range of a cannonball has historically defined the beginning of international waters. If you think that the victor applies the international law of war crimes to the conduct of its own politicians and troops I have a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell you. You don't have to be Hitler to acknowledge the obvious imperfections of this world.

[winfried_buechsenschuetz1]

It is hard to say whether Zeiss in Oberkochen or Carl Zeiss in Jena had the better lens experts. At least the east-german Zeiss people outperformed the west-german ones with their early post-war re-design of the Tessar. For many years the east german Tessar was the better one. (I do not own west-german Tessars of that era but several cameras with east-german ones, and they all are tack-sharp - but you can hear many complaints about west-german Tessars on Rolleiflexes of the 50s). Also, the mechanical built quality of Zeiss-Jena was quite high, they had a ball-bearing aperture mechanism, for example. They also made the only tele lenses I have heard of with automatic aperture correction for close focussing (the effective focal length changes when you focus close, and the aperture numbers are no longer correct without a correcting mechanism).

[richard_s.]

<i>There was one ambiguity is a

sand for lenses. I heard hearing (I do not think, that is the truth but

to listen does not stir), that Carl Zeiss used sand for the lenses

which was rich rare elements. </i><br>

<br>

Shtativ, I´m no expert in glasmaking, but as far as I

understand the most pure ingridents are choosen in glassmaking to

ensure repeatable results. Inpurities could also be introduced through

tools,  like melting pots.<br>

Rare elements are delibaratly added in a controled manner to the glass

mass, to achieve certain properties.<br>

<br>

<i>Whence it to take? Germans

carried to Brazil or Argentina (precisely I do not remember) products,

and back loaded barges sand that the ships were steady by storm. This

sand was stored and used for construction of lenses. All it is no more,

than hearing. And suddenly is it the truth? Who managed valuable sand

about which legends go? </i><br>

<br>

Maybe a legend, Silicon, Sand isn´t very rare,  the

centers of glass making in Germany are far from the coast. <br>

But it is quite possible that rare elements were imported from far away

places like Brasil.<br>

On the other hand, compaired to construction work like bridges, houses

or damms, not much Sand is necesairy for the production of optical

glass (the cement for the fundation of the Statue of Liberty in New

York was imported from Germany).<br>

<br>

<i>Also tell to me, my friends,

whence you know all it? Allow me to read it too :-)<br>

<br>

</i>A lot of bits falling together

not a single source.<br>

[michael schub]

Winfried,

 

Zeiss Jena had the experienced workers. It took West German Zeiss some years to train its employees. I know some Opton lenses were badly put together with lens elements skewed or loose in the mounts and even chipped elements.

[Greg M]

All these long history lessons are nice, good to know, and for the most part are quoted everytime this question is asked, but back to the original question of how to tell an East German Zeiss lens from a West German Zeiss lens, the answer is fairly short- if you want to be sure you are buying a West German-made Zeiss lens for your Contax you just need to be sure you are buying one labeled either "Opton" (early Post WWII) or ones labeled simply "Carl Zeiss", which were made after 1953 or 1954, give or take. It's how you can date both any West German Contax lens or Zeiss lens on cameras such as Rolleiflex twin lens reflexes. The ones prior to 1953 or 54 are labled "opton", and later ones are labeled "Carl Zeiss". If you buy a lens labeled "Jena" you are either buying a pre-WWII lens or post war East German lens. "Carl Zeiss" or "Opton"- that's all you need to look for on the front lens ring and all I would buy today if I wanted West German optics and mechanics.

[pshinkaw]

The East German lenses (depending on when they were made in the patent/trademark litigation timeline) will also be labeled as "Jena", "aus Jena", "Carl Zeiss Jena" or "CZJ".

 

There was some East-West trade in lenses, because occasionally you may see a West German camera body with a noninterchangeable East German lens.

 

-Paul

[- shtativ]

Many thanks! I did not think, that when I shall set a simple question on the country the manufacturer of a lens, I with excitement of curiosity shall read each word! Very interestingly! I tell to friends everything, that here is written, how fascinating history! To you I shall be grateful, if you will tell about any interesting facts or legends about this remarkable firm! For example, I know a legend about how Dagor from the very beginning could belong to firm Zeiss. I have read it from Tito Carlos Maria Sobrinho:

 

 

 

"Ken Ruth at Photography at Bald Mountain is an enthusiast concerning Dagors. He told me the following: "This 27 y.o. mathematician (Emil Von Hoegh), went to Zeiss with his new design for a symmetrical double anastigmat. On his way to Jena, he stopped at a fair and won a goose in a raffle. He knocked at the Zeiss door looking for job as a lens designer and offering his lens to be manufactured. They look at this guy with a goose under his arm and obviously the answer was "Thank you very much" So, he went to Goerz in Berlin and was immetiately hired as a chief optical designer. Goerz started producing the lens in 1894 and in 1895 they reached 35.000 units."

[tim_hinchliffe]

As a soccer fan, I always had a hankering to show support for the team FC Carl Zeiss Jena, out of gratitude for the amount of their glass that I use. Sadly it seems the fortunes of the club have echoed the fortunes of the business generally, and these days they seem to be rather hopeless, plodding along in the third division, or whatever. (Come on, you Blues!)

Just thought you'd like to know.

Tim Hinchliffe.

[Richard Williams]

Brazil is a source of monazite sands, major ores of rare earth elements like thorium and lanthanum. Rare earth elements have been used in Schott optical glass since the turn of the 20th century.

[Richard Williams]

...and a bit of Googling finds this in the 1911 Britannica:

 

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/M/MO/MONAZITE.htm

 

'In Brazil it occurs in river-gravels and also in the sand on the sea-beaches; an extensive accumulation of very rich monazite sand occurs on the seashore near Alcobaca in Bahia, and this has been shipped as ballast in the natural state.'

 

so the story about the returning ships may well be true.