The Zen of Leica M camera use and the M8

[working camera]

Ok, we've done the specs we've covered the most important aspect of M considerations COLOUR and

finish.

 

So now hopefully y'all will indulge in a bit of airy-fairy touchy feely territory. The Zen of M camera

operation as it applies to the M8.

 

When it first appeared one of the features of the RD-1 (digi-rangefinder) which caught my attention was

the inclusion of the traditional film wind-on lever. Not only does it fit aesthetically in, in that it looks like a

real RF but the ability to manually cock the shutter also appealed. Save some battery power in the process.

Not as important these days due to better cell technologies... but... it's a feature I like about the R9 Motor

Drive combo. The ability to seamlessly move from all powered mode to manual operation.

 

From my understanding the M8 will loose the wind-on lever. Apart from the fact an M body will look daft

sans winder lever, the process of cocking the shutter with the Ms seems an essential part of the

experience of using these cameras, to me anyhow. Time out to consider the next frame. I don't always

want to shoot in full-bore paparazzi mode. Wind-on is something to do with the hands inbetween shots if

you will. Yikes Leica's abolition of that sexy smooth feeling of winding on to next frame...

 

I'd be interested in hearing back from RD-1 users on the manual shutter cock thing and how useful it

actually is in practice.

 

Given the predicted design of the M8 "R9 type shutter" and all powered operation, I wonder just how much

M-ness will be retained in the digital version. Apart from the body size and shape, VF RF, where's the rest

of the M-ness?

 

BTW shook hands wid the devil today and played with an EOS 5D. Bloody nice camera with sweet

ergonomics and so sweetly balanced. (but I never said this) ...be interesting to see how the M8 actually

feels in the hand.

 

C.

[justin_viiret]

Well, I'm all for removing the winder lever if there isn't a good reason for it to be there... and as far as I can see, there isn't -- no film to wind on, no need to add another delay to the process of taking photographs by adding a "cosmetic" winder. :)

 

I would ask: if the body's the same size and shape and has a rangefinder/viewfinder like an M camera, what more "M-ness" do you need? About the only thing I can think of that's missing is the cloth shutter, and I think that'd make the design even more difficult to get right (and it's quite a task already!)

 

I think that everything we've heard so far is encouraging (except the crop factor, perhaps, and that's understandable if it's a limitation of current technology.) Can't wait to actually see one.

[frank_reidelbach]

The best ZEN is when it comes without shutter at all, and the electronic chip can be switched on and off.

 

This should result in a pure simple camera LEICA once was...

[richard_s.]

<i> ...played with an EOS

5D. Bloody nice camera with sweet ergonomics and so sweetly balanced.</i><br>

<br>

How did you like it´s wind-on lever?<br>

[al_kaplan1]

Craig, it's just as I suspected. I put a couple of loose wraps of the strap around my wrist and held an M2/35 combo in my right hand just as I often do when I'm shooting. Pressing my right thumb against the camera back, and smack up against the extended wind lever, is what makes for a nice stable and secure one hand hold.

[brambor]

The lever cocked the mechanical shuttern RD1 - I think. That results in battery saving. I'm all for that. I see no problem with that but it's a moot point if the camera wastes battery on other operations.

[steve george]

As a Leica and 5D user I agree, the 5D is great. :-)

[WM]

Go on Craig, you know you want that 5D. You won't regret it. Only problem is if you're a 50mm shooter, the Canon 50/1.4 is nowhere close to the 50mm Summilux wide-open though. Ggggrrrrr ! Canon needs to sort their 50mm out, and I sure hope it will be soon.

[Karim Ghantous]

<i>How did you like itﾴs wind-on lever?</i>

<br /><br />

Funny thing about DSLRs and wind-on levers: they replaced them with wind-on <i>wheels</i>. You just turn them with your thumb. What's weirder is that some cameras have <i>two</i>! But they just keep turning and turning and turning... must be the low, low gearing they have.

<br /><br />

Craig, I see your point. IMO the M is defined by the cloth shutter and sexy body. Film or no film, it must be silent or semi-silent. Huw has the right idea: a purely electronic shutter with nothing in between the lens and sensor.

[kenny_c]

that means no more impressing people with the 1 hand rewind?

[al_kaplan1]

The one thing I never liked about the Olympus Pen cameras was that little film advance wheel on the back. Great lenses though!

[andyaitken]

I think Leica are making a big mistake here - now they won't be able to charge an arm and a leg for the add-on Leicavit Rapid Shutter Cocker...

[working camera]

Well I guess a few rolled up to the thread what has never seen a CRF let alone actually

used one.

 

As Al Kaplan pointed out the wind-on lever of a Leica is an integral part of the ergonomics

of the thing. So its not really just a moot point.

 

If Leica don't get the fine details of the ergonomics right for M8 then its just another digi

but with optical RF, yes-No?

 

Now to the point about the 5D Canon. Yeah they have done a nice job on the body it has a

very sweet feel for a DSLR. More managable than the big EOS 1s, I can see it would make a

top little street shooting oufit. I 'spose the question is will the M8 retain enough of the

famed M feel to warrant not opting for a more capable DSLR like the 5D.

 

Now if the Canon had decent sensor that pumped out a half decent file then we could talk.

That's another story. Those what like working on their Canon files are welcome to it.

 

But to be honest when I do go more seriously with digital capture it probably won't be at

the pissant format end, so it certainly won't be a bloody Canon. You may have guessed I

am not that fond of their files.

 

But then again because I have much invested the way of M lenses an M8 would make much

better sense economically than forking out minor fortunes on Canon glass. That gear is

still pretty damn expensive. That's where I beleive the purcahse rational behind an M

mount digi starts to make sense it terms of the considerable out lay required for the body,

M8 or RD-1. Many M users have a bevy of M mount lenses. A new Nikon or Canon kit

would be the more expensive option, at least for me.

 

and Andy no worries mate I bet Leica will still provide fine, totally useless accessories such

as Leicavit Rapid Shutter Cocker. The name has a nice ring to it.

 

C.

[Brad_]

<I>Those what like working on their Canon files are welcome to it.</I><P>

 

I've never found my canon files requiring "work." Can you expand upon your personal

experience with canon files being work?

[john_graham3]

"I've never found my canon files requiring "work." Can you expand upon your personal experience with canon files being work?"

 

I'd be interested in that too, since I use the 1DS-II and 5D for catalog shots of everything inlcuding jewelry, designer clothing, paintings, automobiles and real estate (to name just a small sample of the kinds of things that are brokered in major liquidations)where portraying colors as naturally as possible is an issue, and if I have to do any post work on color it's usually because I was lazy and left in in AWB under some weird combo of mixed lighting. Then again after reading Peter's articulate and erudite reponse ("blaaaaaahh phtewey.") I'm more confident my results are the rule rather than the exception :*)

[EricM]

weird bunch photographers are.

[lb-]

I'll bet there's an add on, purely cosmetic wind lever for the M8 within a month of it's release

 

available in single or double stroke.

[michael s.]

Don't be fooled. Beneath all that "blaaaaaahh phtewey" and the 3-4 mistakes per line there lurks a discriminating eye .... and the hands of one of the world's worst typists.

 

Not that it's directly relevant, but I make extensive use of a Canon p & s digital camera, and I'm very pleased with it. However, to my eye it quite often overdoes the reds, and also gets skin tones too red, most notably in daylight photos. That can be fixed in photoshop, and it does not detract from my use and enjoyment of the camera.

[nkag]

"The Canon 1dsmk11 files have lousy colour simple as that. As in lousy skin tones

compared to the DMR or even Nikon, as in any red or pink in particular require a LOT of

muckin around to get to look even vaguely natural. other colours are ok - red hues -

blaaaaaahh phtewey. Canon files are also over smoothed in camera - I actually prefer teh

noise from teh DMR and Nikon to the over processed file you get from Canon...I just prefer

a full frame sensor to teh cropped stuff that leica or Nikon deliver which is why I am

reluctantly putting up with Canon's view of what red should look like"

 

Everything needs workarounds (Nikon, Leica, or Canon) and there are workarounds for

everything. If throwin money at it don't work, then you'd better cope with it. "Simple as

that."

[john_graham3]

Not true of Leica. All you need is to stay within the cocoon of a Leica forum, where you'll find a chorus of like-minded individuals to support the parallel reality where Leica is always superior to everything else, and decry the rest of the world as made up of the blind, the ignorant and the undiscerning :*)

[john_camp]

I have several cameras right now, God help me, including an R-D1 and an M7 and two

Nikons, one digital and one film. I believe (but, having temporarily stepped out of my God-

like persona) don't actually *know* that the Rd-1 wind-on lever is an aesthetic thing in

keeping with all the analog dials. I like the aesthetic touches, but the winder's certainly not

necessary. Since the camera needs quite a bit of battery power to keep operating anyway,

the amount used for shutter cocking is really a minor factor. On another forum, somebody

suggested that the wind-on lever could be usefully attached to a tiny generator that

actually recharges the battery, which, while it may be impossible, would be an amusing

notion to float on a Leica forum about the upcoming M8...

 

If the person who liked the Canon 5D ergos really doesn't want to get involved with the

dark side, then he should definitely stay away from the Nikon D200, which has, IMHO,

ergos designed to suck away the loyalty of Leica users. (I think Leica and Nikon lead the

field in ergos; then maybe the Older Olympuses, and Pentaxes, and then maybe the

Canons and finally, WalMart shoeboxes, or perhaps the other way around for the last two.

Not that I'm partisan.)

 

JC

[working camera]

I've been skiving away in bed Pete. Last time I checked the thread was 3 am. Not the time

to post.

 

Yeah... chain yanking. Boy howdy do folk get wound up over much ado ﾑbout nothing. I

mean who could actually give a rats about my particular prejudices? We all have um. As

Eric put it "weird bunch photographers are" always have been and always will be.

 

But none of this addresses the topic of how the M8 will fit into the traditions of the M

series of cameras. To paraphrase Marc Williams in an earlier thread Leica has never been a

purely rational choice... this is to a large degree a touchy feely (the fondle factor involved)

subject. I'm interested about how the M8 will fit into the sub culture of Leica.

 

Can't comment on the D200 Johnﾅ but it does not generate the full emotional response of

the 5D.

 

C.

[jimsimmons]

An important aspect of Leica photography for me is the way I can photograph people while maintaining a conversational relationship with them. With the RF to the side of my head, they can see that I'm looking at them with one eye, they can see and hear my mouth moving or smiling at them, I can slide the camera over a bit to restablish full eye contact, and I can keep them involved with ME and not tensing up because they're "having their picture taken." When I wind on the shutter, it subtly announces to them that I've taken a photograph. So many people are used to having one photo taken, and then it's over, such that when I'm taking my 4th or 5th picture, they tense a little, as in "what's wrong?" or "what's up?" I would think that eliminating the action of cocking the shutter would be MORE Leica-like in that the act of photography is even LESS distracting to the subject, helping the photographer maintain the non-photography part of the relationship.

[andrew robertson]

The shutter wind lever is fine for shooting at typical RF pace. If I need to blast a bunch of

frames off I can use one of my Canons.

 

But it's fun to drag the old 'Canons have poor color rendition' horse out and beat it a few

times, eh? I have never found that to be the case, but I shoot RAW and generally rely upon

Adobe's AWB (with the RARE tweak) in ACR, so I don't often need to 'work on' files.

 

The Canon has much better color balance than any film in the world, under any lighting, as

do most any DSLR / DRF cameras out there.

[nzdavid]

I think the wind on lever is one of the dumbest features on the RD-1. Why does it need

one? To quote the Bauhaus exponents: form follows function. Features need to be there

for a reason. Anything else is extraneous and just gets in the way. Simplicity is the key.

Having said that, I believe clear manual controls are a whole lot simpler to use than hunt-

and-peck digital menus. We need more of them.

 

There are automotive parallels: both the new BMW Mini and VW Beetle are mere pastiches

of the originals, which were designed to be simple, fun and cheap. We don't need to

merely copy successful designs of the past, we need to choose their best features and

combine them with sensible new ones. Surely not too much to ask? Or perhaps it is.

 

Yes, those digi SLRs are clever as a boxful of monkeys but probably even heavier.