simple MF folder with flash sync

[eli_chartkoff1]

Which of the simpler, non-rangefinder MF folders have sync capabilities for an

electronic flash?

 

The application would be photographing indie rock bands late at night in tiny

clubs where light is so extremely dim that flash is necessary. It occurred to

me that this could be done using a simple scale-focused 6x9 or 6x6 folding

camera set at a small aperture. I haven't tried this myself but started

thinking this way after reading Weegee's "Naked City" book where he admits to

not even trying to do any critical focusing in the dark, he just uses a flash at

f/22 and lets depth of field take care of everything.

 

I realize that a coupled/uncoupled rangefinder would be more versatile, but a

simple optical viewfinder would be easier to see through in the dark...you'd be

amazed how little light there is in some of these places.

 

Thanks...

[bueh]

Very small and compact: 6x6 Welta Weltax with <abbR title="Carl Zeiss Jena">CZJ</abbR> Tessar.<p>

But I also found that the viewfinder of the <b><a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Dxmf">Iskra I</a></b> camera that comes with a coupled rangefinder is bright enough to take pictures in nightclubs, enabling me to accurately focus even at f/4.<div></div>

[helmut_wieczorek]

Most decent folders made in the 50's and later should be X sync-capable. Mine is Bessa I with Prontor-S shutter with X-sync and Vaskar 4.5 lens. There are two marks on the camera's distance scale to help you get things in focus: one for close subjects, the other for more distant ones. Sounds like something that might be of a help to you. One issue with Bessa is that in poorly lit places it might not be easy to properly advance the film since the frame number on the film would be difficult to see in the red window. This camera has double exposure prevention, though. IMHO a 35mm rangefinder with 1.8 or 1.7 glass and automatic film advance would do a better job in the environment you're describing. With high-ISO film you might get good results shooting without flash. Ocassionally, I have been using Minolta Himatic 9 in low-light situations and results were quite good. I find Himatic 9 to be one great camera. Although it can operate in auto mode with batteries, I greatly appreciate the fact that it can work without them, too.

Let me add, that an older 35mm rangefinder should be less expensive than MF folder with features you desire.

By the way, shooting with flash at F22 dramatically limits effective range of your flash. F11 or F16 should do here.

[dave_whoami]

I can't help. I have been doing a lot of that lately, but flash is not permitted in the club I have been "working" (in quotes because, pay or not, the job is fun) so I have been fast film at f 1.2 and fast film.

[eli_chartkoff1]

Thanks for your answers.

 

Helmut, thanks for clarifying the flash at f/22 issue (as you can probably guess I'm not used to working with a flash). Based on your suggestions I'll certainly take a look at a 35mm rangefiner with a fast lens, then.

[richard_oleson]

Zeiss Nettars are common and inexpensive 6x6 folders with decent f/6.3 or f/4.5 triplet lenses set in simple 3-speed Vario or Velio shutters. Not very glamorous but good picture takers, and the shutters were X-synched.... not because people were actually using strobes on cheap folders in the 50s, but because it's cheaper to X-synch a shutter than to bulb synch it.

 

I have a couple extras if you want one....

 

:)=

[lili_elrod]

As Dark as you describe the setting to be, don't forget that you will NOT be able to use the red window to count frames unless you have a bright flashlight. So you might consider a MF folder that has a frame counter, like a Super Ikonta, Super Ikomat or Perkeo II.

I find the red window difficualt enough to use in day light with some films, the numbering on the paper backing tend to very faint.

[.th]

my fav folder is the voigtlander perkeo II (not that i've tried them all, far from it), no rf, film winding mechanism so you don't need the red window (for anything but the first frame), amazingly small and compact, has sync... mine has the skopar 80mm/3.5 (tessar clone) which is not up to any modern standards of course, but then, modern standards don't fold either... well, most at least.

<br><br>

 

some time ago i noticed a few of them going for ridiculously little money on ebay, but that was a while ago....

<br><br>

 

best of luck with your project, it sounds interesting.

[dennis_w3]

Perkeo II's on Ebay have gone up significantly; I saw one go for $275 recently, but I would agree that the Perkeo would be among the best for your use--tiny by any comparison, very sturdy, sharp optics with the Skopar (even by today's standards, IMO) and no need to use the red window in dim light. I have often used mine indoors in low light, and it's a pleasure. And shooting at 16 or 22 really does get a deep field.

[john_shriver]

Weegee got f/22 with #22 (or larger) flashbulbs, which pack a LOT more light than a Vivitar 283. Flash bulbs have guide numbers that put small electronic flashes to shame.

[david_m]

You will need an extremely powerful flash to shoot at F22 unless you can get very close. Using a powerful flashbulb will quickly get you thrown out of the club. Remember that the performers are usually lit by spotlights so you can actually shoot with somewhat larger apertures than you might think. If you use flash you will wash out these interesting lighting effects.

[conrad_hoffman]

Here's another way. Back in high school I had a TLR and a medium power flash. I used to shoot basketball games using the sports finder (a.k.a., the hole through the hood), so couldn't focus. Had to keep the lens near to wide open. What I'd do is focus on a far point, say the opposite side of the gym. That would be near to but just off the infinity stop. Then I'd focus on the nearest point I expected anything to happen. That gave me two locations on the focusing knob. Then it was just a matter of guestimating the knob travel based on where the subject was between the near and far points. Just used rough proportions. It sounds difficult and crazy, but with a little practice, I got way more keepers than fuzzies.

[michael_gilday]

1950's Nettars, as was already suggested, often but not always have sync'd shutters, and are available cheaply. All of mine are the older, mostly black variety with collapsible viewfinders, so I'm not positive, but certainly none of the ones I have have accessory shoes mounted to them, requiring a handle type of arrangement to actually attach a flash per se. Using a Metz 45 solves that problem as well, of course. :) Then again, if you're going to use a big Metz or Sunpak flash like that, you might as well go all the way and use a Century Graphic or baby Speed Graphic; I'm constantly amazed what sorts of things one can get away with when people see a big old press camera in your hands. :)

 

I've done very, very little photography in clubs, though I've done a whole heck of a lot of photography in other places with little or no ambient light, and you're definately on the right track - optical viewfinders are an absolute godsend for this sort of circumstance.

 

An alternative option to a MF folder is an old rangefinder press camera, like an Omega Rapid (which has the best view- and rangefinder of any camera I've ever used, bar none). Simple film advance without red windows, X-sync'd, and cheap, too. :) Alas, they're rather grieviously heavy, and the lighter press cameras - Mamiya Press, Graflex XL - are several times more expensive. On the other hand, a 220 back will get you 20 shots per roll, and they're all lighter, and probably more reliable, than a Kiev with prism...

[eli_chartkoff1]

Thanks for all your answers. You're right, I hadn't considered the limitations of a red window in a darkened club (by the way--to clarify, these aren't clubs with nice spotlights and extensive stage lighting. These are tiny clubs that have maybe one extremely dim light on, maybe with a red filter. I don't know why, but most bands ask for stage lights to be turned down as low as humanly possible, I see this over and over...)

 

Interestingly, my wife does use a camera with flashbulbs in clubs occasionally. It's a Polaroid 100 that uses M3 and M3B bulbs. She's never been thrown out, but once after taking a picture of a performer at the Hotel Cafe in Hollywood a member of the audience was overheard saying "well, I'm blind now."

[richard_oleson]

it is worth remembering that after you fire off a big flash at a performer on a dark stage, he IS blind, and may remain that way for some time. Depending on the nature of the performance, this can be anywhere from very impolite and irritating to dangerous for the performer. i would make sure that i had permission before firing a flash - especially a big one - in a place like that.

 

as for the red window issue, there is one cheap folder with an interesting feature: the Seagull has a red window for frame counting but it also, uniquely, has a lever advance. It's a dual format, 645 - 6x6 camera, and the way it's geared, 2 strokes gets you one frame at 645 and 3 strokes gets you to the 6x6 frame. spacing is not perfect this way, but you can manage a few shots in the dark and get away with it.

[lili_elrod]

Richard is quite right, having been on stage I can attest that a flash could blind them badly. A fast lens and film might be far better.

A Yashica GSN/GTN is inexpensive and their lenses are great!

In MF, I still recommend the Perkeo II. With fast film you can still do quite well and even with pushed processing the big negative will minimize grain. The Color Skopar is very very good especially towards the center widee open and all over when stopped down. Since only the band will be well lit, then the edges and corners will not really matter.

[lili_elrod]

Oops.

Eli, I just saw your latest post.

Ok based on your lighting description and the fact your wife has gotten away with flash bulb you might be ok with a strobe. Even a 283 is nothing compared to most of those bulb flashes. My exes SX70 flashbars were bad enough! Imagine one of Weegee's 40watt lightbulb sized monsters!!!!

You'd need sunblock spf 50!

[eli_chartkoff1]

Yeah, I'm on stage constantly. There's always someone shooting off a digital point and shoot with a flash. Even though it's dim onstage, there is always some kind of stage light shining in my eyes, and it's enough to keep me from being blinded--actually I barely notice the flashes most of the time. But, as you point out, there's a big difference between a powerful flashbulb and a dinky little electronic flash.

 

Surely some of the smaller bulbs aren't as blindingly powerful?

 

...the red window film advance is definitely an issue here.

[dave_powell2]

Hi Eli!

 

Another suggestion is the Kodak Monitor 620. Its f/4.5 Anastigmat Special lens is quite good and it has an automatic frame-counting/film-stop mechanism that allows one to get 16 exposures on a roll of 220 (with the film-number viewing window taped over, of course). It also has a very useful "hyperfocal" focusing aid on the top deck, and its viewfinder has a primitive parallax-correction mechanism (hence, the "Monitor" in its name).

 

Its two drawbacks are that is is a somewhat large and heavy (solid) folder, and that it was designed to use 620 film. But mine is the model that had flexible metal spring clips in both film chambers, so I only need to trim back the flange edges on 120 and 220 rolls to get them in. 120's slightly longer spool length doesn't matter.

 

Just another candidate!

 

Dave

[bueh]

The aforementioned Iskra comes with an auomatic frame counter, while the Weltax uses the usual red window.

 

Most 35mm rangefinders have pretty dim viewfinders that are not so well suited for low-light work. Their auto mode/light meter is also not reliable in low light and most have a top film number of about 500-800 ISO/ASA.

 

If you want Weegee's look, you gotta work like him, which means small apterture and powerful direct flash. I don't like this look and rather work with a bounced flash, long shutter speeds ("B") and the largest possible aperture for auto mode on the flash unit.

 

I tried a lot of (classical) equipment and various techniques in dance clubs and can tell you that it is pretty hard getting decent pictures if you don't know what you do. You need to shoot/experiment a lot and find out what works for you and your equipment. And sooner or later you need to become good at guestimating the distance to your subject. This kind of photography is where digital SLRs with dedicated flash units have a serious edge of all other kind of cameras.

[lili_elrod]

Eli,

Richard had a very good idea. There is a Seagull folder listed at Ritzcamera.com. It uses the red window but you can count strokes as he said. It has a quite good unit focusing lens and a COUPLED rangefinder with a decent viewfinder. GO to their catalog and look under "Horizontal 2 1/4 folders"...

The Perkeo has a decent if tiny VF. The Seagull looks to have project framelines and its VF is said to be fairly big and bright for MF folder. The Seagull has a unit focussing lens which ought to help image quality a bit wide open

Just a thought...

As to "available darkness" shooting, I agree. That is one reason I love my GSN and my Hexar AF so much. They both have big, bright and clear VF's. I am told an M3 would be brightest, but I cannot afford one yet ;)

As to flashbulbs, I have only ever played with his SX70. They were maybe as bright at peak as a 283 but the flash lasts so loooong it is still far more blinding O_O

I am not a big flash fan, I use the Hexar and very fast film and like the look of avaiable light (or lack thereof, LOL).

The bars I have and still do work at are a bit brighter than those you describe.

[michael_gilday]

Unless you're really trying to be a masochist, and using slow film, an M2 or M3 flashbulb should be more than adequate - an M3 should give you f/22 at 20' with ISO 400 film. There's really no need for a #5 or anything larger, IMO.

 

One of the few bands I've ever shot in concert(the Flash Girls, a folk-rock duo), I shot with M2 and M3 flashbulbs. That was in 35mm, in a Zorki, I think, on Kodak's old T400CN, but still about the same. There were a few "Aaargh, I'm blind!" and similar screams, as this was in a hall with nearly zero lighting. (It was at a science-fiction convention a few years ago, and one nearby wit was heard to exclaim "Is this the Rapture? It's a miracle, I could see and now I'm blind!") M3s definately lit the place up, I have to admit. I was thirty feet away, give or take, and off to one side; I hesitate to think what might happen if you pop off a flashbulb at an unsuspecting performer from, say, six feet away.

 

Flashbulbs really are a PITA to work with, though. Admittedly, if you're using a classic MF folder, you're not going to be shooting super quickly anyway, but they're one more thing to slow you down - or go wrong. There's nothing quite like shooting in the dark, having a flashbulb not go off when you trip the shutter, then looking at it in the dark and wiggling it to make better contact in the flashgun... and *then* having it go off - in your face. :)