580EX/420EX in umbrella + sun - for dummies

[shawngibson]

I borrowed a 580EX and 420EX (not the new one) for figuring out if they will

work for me. I'm shooting a bunch of people for a fashion/jewelry thing this

weekend with the person I'm starting (slowly...) a photo business with, and my

main rig of 5D+85/1.2 and on-board ST-E2 will be what I'm using (will have tons

of stuff, 1DsII, 1DII, 20D, lots of L lenses, but I'm a simple guy myself), but

I'd like to shoot some shots against the sky/available light with these 2

flashes into my 4' umbrella, jigged to be basically both in the centre of the

umbrella (backed off so it's making a broad, powerful source), so my model has a

specifically artificial look, against the natural light in the background. Along

the lines of Mark Seliger, but not so good LOL.

 

My problem right now is I've no manual for these flashes, and the person I

borrowed them from hasn't used them either, yet; and I am a tungsten guy, in the

process of BUYING studio flashes, with no recent experience, and zero experience

with Canon flashes, so I'm totally lost.

 

What's the best way to set the 5D and 2 flashes up to have available light in

the background, these 2 flashes forming a single head in the umbrella, and

trying to get the skin to 18% grey and compensated, with the background

approximately a stop or so underexposed.

 

I'll keep these shots very simple: one model, one umbrella to the side, natural

outdoor light in the background, and a bounce (white foam) to the other side of

the light.

 

If setting this up is rocket science, then a simpler question: what's the best

way to make sure, all else being haphazard, my model is properly exposed and

there is enough data elsewhere in the RAW file to be workable? I have to remove

focus from where it is currently ("*") and put it back to the shutter, don't I?

I use spot metering usually.

 

I'll be shooting AV set to the aperture I want (I'm pretty steady so don't

expect shutter problems) or I am equally happy to put it in manual, but being on

other peoples' time, this is a little slower.

 

I can use a grey card, but I'm worried since none of the models are

professionals that I might slow things down by being a perfectionist.

 

My biggest concern is how to set the camera and flashes, as I've absolutely no

idea how they work together. I do know the units fire fine off my ST-E2. But I

also know the exposures I've gotten playing around, are all over the place

yesterday...

 

Thanks everyone,

 

Shawn www.shawngibson.com

[PuppyDigs]

If it's a bright day the Speedlites shot into an umbrella may be too feeble to do jack at normal

model working

distances for full body poses. If it's twilght/sunset it should work but the strong backlighting

might fool the

meter (underexpose). Manual flash would be more dependable but the 420EX can only do E-

TTL II in this situation. So I'd set CF 14.1 on the 5D: Averaging/Disable auto fill reduction and

dial in

FEC as needed.

[shawngibson]

Thanks Puppy Face.

 

My working distance for the umbrella is about 1/2 inch from the model...hehe. Well technically, I'm usually 'umbrella just out of the shot' because I like the light very soft (I make everyone sign a going blind contract...JK). Hoping that 1/2-3/4 length with the 85mm lens, that should at least get me somewhere with the 2 flashes.

 

Indeed, if that doesn't work, then I know not to buy this type of setup, and go to Lumedyne/Prophoto.

 

I'll experiment tonight and over the next couple days with your settings, and anything else that comes up.

 

Thanks very much,

Shawn

[jim_larson1]

A few simple rules to remember:

 

1) Ambient exposure is independent from flash exposure.

 

2) ETTL-II is an AVERAGING flash method across the metering zone.

 

3) The flash metering zone is NORMALLY the evaluative zone, but will be the partial metering zone when you do FEL.

 

4) AFFR and NEVIC (auto fill reduction in bright light; Negative exposure compensation when dark) will apply.

 

SO:

 

a) In bright light, you probably need a plus 1 FEC or so to get normal exposure from the flash.

 

b) In bright light, you need a -1 ambient exposure compensation to tone down the background.

 

c) You will want to use Flash exposure lock to make the flash ignore (sort of) the background.

 

d) In low light (sunset), you probably want to ditch the Exposure compensation and flash compensation. Let the image preview (not necessarily the histogram) be your guide. The +1 / -1 numbers I cite above are examples: You probably will need to compensate to taste.

 

e) I agree with Puppy face: Not sure the umbrellas will work well. You are not trying to bounce light off of anything, so all they cost is a few stops of power.

 

The lack of controls on the 420EX should not be a handicap. You can effectively put FEC on that flash by dialing a flash ratio on the ST-E2. If you dial a 1:2 ratio, you effectivaly have a -1 FEC on group "A" and no ratio on group "B" (or something like that)

[shawngibson]

Thanks Jim. This is the stuff I need to perform trials with my cat/dog/mom in the park tonight/tomorrow.

I don't understand (e). I have black/silver umbrellas too, would it be more appropriate to shoot with them? I only used them in the past behind the white umbrella to keep flare from my lens and push a bit back since I used tungsten which can use all the help it can get, power-wise (this is why I'm moving to softboxes most likely...contrast/flare from the source hitting the lens).

 

For Saturday this help is most appreciated. I'm sure I'll figure it out from these tips. For my own purchases thereafter, I'm already convinced the Canon route is wrong.

 

I'm very much inclined to get the Profoto Acute2 1200WS pack, the standard head, and the ringflash, to start a front-end setup, in August/early September, then buy another pack and 2 heads for the back from there. Much more expensive (including accessories!), but then I know for certain I will have fully professional results open to me, and I will be the only weak link.

 

Lumedyne looks equally promising, and they are apparently doing Hensel ringflash units to their specs now, so I have to look further into that option, too.

 

Anyways, I'm sure the help you guys provided will let me experiment enough to know whether it's even worth bringing the Canon flash equipment or not on Saturday, or just shooting available/bounce with my 5D/851.2.

 

Thanks again, Shawn

[jim_larson1]

I can't help with anything except the Canon stuff. . .I don't shoot for money and barely afford the toys I have :) -> and multiflash in daylight is something I just don't need much of for "happy shots" ;)

[shawngibson]

Not at all, your help is invaluable, Jim. The decision I have to make is a very personal one that not really anyone could help me with - it's a lot of money (I don't make anything really at this yet either!).

 

The important thing for me was that you helped me to learn what I'll need to get through a shoot with totally unfamiliar equipment - for which I'm always greatful. I'm always babbling on about something or another like what to buy (which I usually end up NOT buying LOL until now), but it's times like this the forum's existence is worth it's weight in, uh, lithium batteries...

 

Shawn

[lb-]

hey shawn,

 

you should be able to hold the sky and still get that nice flashy look with the 2 speedlights. I use 2 580's into a photek softlighter for outdoor portraits and it usually works out. 4 foot umbrella is pretty big though. bring a smaller one if you have it.

 

I don't bother with the ettl wireless though. The triggering is not reliable outdoors in my experience and when I'm using off camera lighting I prefer to work with manual units anyway.

 

the profoto stuff is great but a bit pricey for what it is imo. but smoke em if you got em I guess.

 

If the only reason to go profoto is the ring flash know that you can use some of their rings on other packs with some modification.

 

I've used a profoto ring on a lumedyne pack which was pretty darn convenient. I know some people have used profoto rings on dynalite packs as well.

 

I've heard that calumet makes a ring that'll work on a norman 200 or 400ws batt pack but I've never seen it.

 

cheers

[shawngibson]

Hi Lucas, thanks for the suggestions, I'll keep this in mind as I experiment. I have a few umbrellas.

 

Re: ringflash - that is a large part of the decision as to what system to buy into.

 

I've emailed all the above companies, and a couple of others. The only company that got back to me was Lumedyne, and they mentioned only the Hensel which they have recently added. I like the system in general, and it looks fully upgradeable in a slower manner, but the Hensel is 2x the price of the profoto ringflash...so I have to figure it all out.

 

I'd be perfectly happy with a Lumedyne setup if I could find a cheaper way to get a ringflash in the mix. They look highly upgradable.

 

Shawn

[picturesque]

I'd set both flashes on manual full output since I also think you might be a little short on flash power if shooting in bright sunlight and you want to underexpose the sky/background. Use manual camera mode. If all the shots are the same, why use AV? You can do a series of test exposures ahead of time so you know exactly what to set the camera for as the subject gets closer to or farther away from the light source. AV (or any automated mode) is too haphazard. Have you used umbrellas outdoors before? Be sure you have lots of sandbags, especially for a four foot umbrella. Unless the air is dead calm, you will have knock-over potential.

[shawngibson]

Thanks Nadine. Av was for 'if I do it the dumb way and let the camera figure the flash out'. I usually shoot manual. If I can figure out how to turn the flashes to Manual, I'm laughing. Haha...

 

I forgot about sandbags. Not oblivious to the need, but it did slip my mind, so thanks for the reminder. Wonder how fetirlizer bags would work for a one-time gig...don't want to waste money as I'm saving for my own lights and not getting paid for this...

 

I'll just tie 3 of them from the midway point of the stand and pull them out, tent-wise. If that doesn't work, at least hopefully the other photographer will have her lens trained on the models as they laugh at me:)

 

Shawn

 

Shawn

[lb-]

hey shawn,

 

fyi, rumor has it the paul buff companies (alien bee/white lighting) are supposed to be releasing some ringflashes soon.

 

here's a clip of an email from him from another forum......

 

"Without devulging too many details too soon, the ringflash will come

out in an AlienBee version and a White Lightning version. The Bee

version will be all self contained like the other Bees and will be

equivalent power to the B800 units. It is impossible to go higher

power because of size and weight constrictions. The WL version will

use separate power supply and will go up to 2600ws. Since the power

supply is not in the WL version it will be lighter and slightly

smaller than the Bee version. Both versions are highly evolved and

will have modeling lamps and a bunch of features and accessories not

ever seen before. Look up the $3000 Broncolor ringflash and imagine

what it could be if designed more completely. Our rings will be light

enough to hand hold on the camera and will accept lenses up to 4"

diameter."

 

I've not used either of those brands but everyone seems to love them and they're affordable. For all that you'll end up using a ring flash for it might be worth waiting to see what they come up with.

 

I'm kinda burnt on the ring look but if the AB setup is cheap enough I'll get one.

[dcheung]

Speaking of Mark Seliger, on www.markseliger.com, when it first loads up it goes through a slide show. Two photos out of the 7 or 8 seems to be out of focus or motion blurred. The two photos are of:

.

Pavarotti and Susan Sarandon

.

I'm not sure if this was done on purpose. I don't see the pictures benefiting from beeng blurred but at the same time I can't see Mark Seliger putting up two pictures that are not sharp but were supposed to be sharp. Any comments?

[shawngibson]

I was hoping I could come back and say 'hey those out of focus images look great...look again!' but I can't. They don't have that quality that makes other out of focus images still look good because there's just 'something there'. Sigh. I still love his work. Between him and von Unwerth, I'd be happy to have 1/2 their style coupled with a bit of 'my own thing'. Now you know I'm old too LOL - I don't even know who the current fashion photographers are.

 

I have always loved Seliger's site. I tried to talk my friend into letting me copy it a bit when I built her site, but she got too impatient and what we ended up with was a simple and basically functional site that doesn't look anything like Seliger's LOL...

 

I confess I know nothing about Alien Bees. From the description, they don't sound battery powered, but I'll check them out and get back:)

 

Shawn

[andrew gundershaug]

My favorite website besides Photo.net is a blog dedicated to optimizing small flashes for exaclty what you are describing, specifically read the On Assignment Posts...

 

 

 

<a href="http://strobist.blogspot.com/">http://strobist.blogspot.com/</a>

 

 

 

I agree with Nadine, places the strobes on manual, full power, and then adjust the power on perhaps the smaller flash as needed...take a test shot and make sure that the histogram looks good, if not tweak the power a little bit more...

 

Andrew

[picturesque]

If you can't get the umbrella to work, I'd just use direct off-camera flash. Looking at Mark Seliger's fashion show gallery, that is how he did his--that plus pretty stark natural light. Only some of his portraits have a diffused off camera light source, and with portraits (and assistants) you have the time and space to control things. At events such as a fashion show, you don't have that luxury. Of course, I don't know if you mean to photograph models as they walk on a runway or in more controlled situations.

[shawngibson]

It's controlled, completely. The gig is apparently 5-6 models in the jerwelery marketer's big fancy backyeard. I believe both the jeweler and the marketer are startup ventures. She's hired/shanghaied a MU/Hair person. The aim is jewelery sales. The models are the selling feature, I guess. I've never actually tried to sell a person before...hummm...

 

In fact, re: sandbags, I concocted a handle out of a bunch of my macro Manfrotto gear last night - the head is now not even on a tripod/stand, it's on a grip. My tripod will be whoever at the shoot is free for 5 minutes while others are being shot, good way to move on the fly, too...and entertain the people who aren't currently in the limelight, is my guess. I will bring the tripod (it's very heavy and wide pro Manfrotto model) to bolt this handle-mount thing to worst case. I can't seen the wind knocking it over, it's a good 25 pounts with everything attached, and the centre of gravity is low.

 

I had no chance to experiement last night, will have to today. I'm actually photographing a friend at work, will give it a quick go there and see.

 

I'm not even going to bother with TTL. The idea of both flashes on full power and manual, and dialing down the 420EX from there (if I can figure that out LOL) seems most comfortable to me; it most recently resembles my old strobe experience, minus the hand held light meter (incident/spot...gotta by another one, for now the histogram and my eye will have to work with bastardized Zone System thrown in). At that point it's just a nice big Sun with manual ND filters built in, i.e., reducing the power manually. Easy. (yeah right...).

 

I hate Auto, it just seemed the right way for some reason, given my stupidity with TTL. I'll avoid it.

 

I will have to be very careful. With the 85/1.2 my natural tendency is going to be to shoot WFO, which will be very dangerous unless I focus on the jewelery. I might be best to forget it's a 1.2 and just shoot at f/4-f/8 as my guide (I can't see the umbrellas working there with a pair of 50-40WS Canon heads). f/1.2 can be some fun shots that make it, or not, but are not critical to the session.

 

I love tummy shots. If any of the jewelery is finger/wrist stuff, I can definitely get some body shots at narrow DoF. Or one model's hand on another model's body; or a couple of hands wearing rings on the same plane...etc..If I get lucky the surroundings will suggest a backdrop or 3. I guess I'll just have to be creative, not normal for me, I normally just shoot 1/2-3/4 length standing/sitting/lying down, and let the expression or the moment be the 'creation'...creative framing is not my forte...

 

It's planned to be an all day thing, so I expect to learn a lot. Just hope my confidence holds. The lights will be the first to go back in the bag if I get nervous...If I can get through the first hour without barfing, I'll be fine...hehe.

 

Shawn

[shawngibson]

PS: I am very, very impressed with Lumedyne (the people at the company). I've never dealt with more helpful people. I am settled on a pretty fast, highly upgradable Lymedyme system, and they will modify a Profoto Ringflash for me at a very reasonable price. DJ there is wonderful to work with.

 

Shawn www.shawngibson.com

[picturesque]

The 420EX can't be controlled manually since it has no manual or manual partial power controls. I don't even know if you can make it go off full power in sync with the camera shutter, but I would think you could figure out how to trick it this way. The 580EX can be controlled manually, with partial power.

[shawngibson]

This was a bust. I was absolutely lost with the flashes. I got purely by chance a few images out of the day, and almost immediately switched to sunlight. I couldn't dial anything to get it to fire properly, half the time it wouldn't fire (and when it did, it was like "WTF?", and I have no idea why because I was about 3 feet from the flash and the head was turned properly towards the ST-E2; it was camera setp/flash setup error on my part for certain.

 

My smartass partner told me I was complicating things of course, grabbed the 580EX and shoved it on her 1DsII, bounced it of the ceiling or wherever required, and got some pretty cool shots. I said, Oh Well, if I could set the damn thing to manual I'd be fine. I couldn't even figure out how to do that without the user manual - hell I didn't know what the buttons meant on the flash! I HATE this rigamaroll to use Canon flash equipment. I'm definitely going with the portable pack setup, Lumedyne or Profoto, because with a sync cord and full manual I know exactly what I am doing. Flash becomes brain surgery and very chancy with this Canon stuff, especially when you have no idea what the camera/flash are doing.

 

But the day wasn't lost. Here's one I just uploaded showing off (in a manner I was impressed by) the 5D 85/1.2 combo at ISO3200 in next to non-existent window light when the moon was practically up. I'm very impressed with the high-ISO of the 5D. I am glad I didn't get stubborn and try to use the flash!

 

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?topic_id=1481&msg_id=00HOwo&photo_id=4720269&photo_sel_index=0

 

The Larger view is better...this is just a first test of the results. I'm happy, at least.

 

Shawn