Can someone School me on replenisher concept?

[wing_gee]

Trying to get an idea of what replisher is used for and what it

does. I'm new to c-41 and haven't processed any yet. I have an atl2

that's down.

 

I'm looking at chemicals for c-41 and I see developer starter, then

replenisher part a and part b. what do they all mean? what exactly

do i need to just get a fresh mix of developer?

 

from reading briefly, as for as i can tell replenisher just makes

older chemicals become new again?

 

I will be getting an ATL-1000 while i work on my ATL2. I believe the

atl-1000 doesn't reclaim chemicals. so it's all one shot.

 

I guess i'm just trying to get an idea of c-41 workflow.

 

Thanks!

Wing

[discpad]

You can always catch the runoff from ANY Jobo processor! The ATL-2 & ATL-3 simply make it easier, with the distributor arm directing it into individual containers... No big whoop.

 

C-41 working tank is slightly diluted replenisher, with a teaspoon or so of starter.

 

"Starter" actually "ages" the developer by simulating the contamination running real film through it does, to maintain precise results on the control strip targets.

 

Use the first column on the chart below to determine the replenishment for color developer; and use the third column for bleach and fixer replenishing.

 

Also, I recommend 2 stage fixing for C-41 (and E-6), using the second stage fixer to replenish the first stage solution.

[BernardMiller]

Hey, Dan--

 

Let me make sure I understand that chart right:

 

The figures mean that is how much fresh chemistry I need to add to my storage container of working solution per each roll or sheet I run, is that indeed correct?

 

So basically after each step (I use a CPP-2, which I have been using pretty much one-shot), I just catch the runoff and return to my jug of working solution while adding the recommended amount of replenishment solution to the jug?

 

I'd like to use replenishment, as that seems so much more economical and environmentally friendly, but I want to make sure I'm doing it right.

 

Thanks!

[discpad]

Pretty much right!

 

If you have a gallon kit, and you mixed one gallon of, say, color developer **in a 1 gallon jug** ---

 

 

You stuff your drum to the max with color dev, even if you have a postage stamp piece of film...

 

 

Then, while the drum is spinning for the 3:15 (195 seconds), you add to the gallon jug the number of mL from the chart.

 

 

Then, when you pour the drum contents back into the gallon jug after the 3:15, you'll have a certain amount of overflow (which is however much you "replenished" the jug by!) and you simply let the overflow run down the drain.

 

 

...This way, whatever is in the gallon jug when it's full is the correct strength.

 

 

There's working tank solution, and replenisher, which you add when you develop; with the overflow going down the drain... A hell of a lot more efficient than single-shot, ESPECIALLY with bleach!!

[BernardMiller]

Brilliant! Thanks!!!

[wing_gee]

Thanks! that makes alot more sense now. so the replenisher is actually the developer and the starter just ages the replenisher to make it a working developer solution.

 

so what does it mean when I see some replenisher with part A and part B?

 

as a question to shelf life. if i keep adding "replenisher" to a working solution. does it effectively reset the shelf life?

 

Thanks!

[john_shriver]

There are Part A and Part B because the two parts would age each other if mixed at the factory. You mix them into replenisher stock per instructions, and then add the "right amount" for each roll processed.

 

Replenisher replaces that part of the chemistry consumed by processing a roll of film. Not all the ingredients are used up, or at the same rates, so replenishers have a different formula from the chemical they replenish. You may have to remove some of the working solution if you didn't lose enough in processing to make room for the right amount of replenisher.

 

That said, most home processors of C-41 don't do enough volume to make replenishment make sense. The working solution of the replenisher has the same limited shelf life as the working solution of the developer. You're just buying more chemicals to throw out when they age out in a month or so.

 

Also, determining the "right amount" of replenisher accurately is not simple. The numbers in the Z-131 manual (see Kodak's website) are only starting points, you need to process control strips and measure them with a densitometer to figure out what the "right amount" is for your processing line. If your over- or under-replenish, your negatives will be off-color and off-density.

 

Just use the C-41 developer one-shot. You will get more consistent results, and won't waste much money. Get the right bottle of concentrate for that operation: "KODAK Flexicolor Developer". You want the chemicals listed under "KODAK FLEXICOLOR Chemicals for Rotary-Tube Processors, Small Tanks, and Unreplenished Sink Lines" in Z-131.

[discpad]

John wrote "That said, most home processors of C-41 don't do enough volume to make

replenishment make sense. The working solution of the replenisher has the same

limited shelf life as the working solution of the developer. You're just

buying more chemicals to throw out when they age out in a month or so."

 

 

And that's pretty much crap.

 

 

First off, the mixed C-41 chemicals have widely different shelf lifes, depending on storage conditions. Bleach lasts 18 months, so you advocate pissing this $29.50/gallon juice down the drain?

 

 

Second, when you flush partially-spent chemistry down the drain -- Which will occur when you put enough in the drum to get sufficient physical immersion, the quantity used is many times greater per roll than any losses you may have from the chemistry expiring.

 

 

Third, who the hell uses C-41 control strips anyway? Yes, big labs like A&I use them to hit the targets (and, these targets are more important for E-6); but, with the advent of scanning, small color shifts are more than compensated for in Photoshop.

 

Pershaps, if Wing has a good enlarger with a color head, he should start to be concerned about tiny C-41 color shifts. BUT, for the average to advanced hobbyist, pissing perfectly good chemistry -- Especially bleach -- is an utter waste of money, and in fact DISCOURAGES shooting a lot of film, because the cost for these "hobby" kits becomes exhorbitant.

 

If Wing and Bernard take even a little bit of care in managing their C-41 & E-6 chemistries -- Nothing beyond high school chemistry level -- they'll process a LOT more film for MUCH less money.

 

 

Also, please see my adjacent post about refrigerating and freezing color chemistry!

[john_shriver]

I only mentioned using the developer one-shot. Of course the bleach can be aerated and recycled. Same with the fixer. They have much better shelf life than developer. I've mentioned this in prior replies on other queries.

 

But I don't think Wing needs to start with a replenished line on his/her first rolls processed. Start with the sink line approach in the Z-131, and learn about that before getting up to replenishment.

 

I think the pointer to Z-131 is the most important thing.

[BernardMiller]

One last question, while we're on this subject, if y'all don't mind.

 

What's the deal on regenerating the bleach via aeration? How is this best accomplished (just an aquarium aerator in a bucket, or what?), and when in the cycle should I do it? Does this work with all forms of color processing bleach--C-41 and E-6? Is it necessary for the RA-4 blix?

 

Again, thanks for all your advice & help!

[Bill C]

>> [bernard] What's the deal on regenerating the bleach via aeration? <<

 

Bernard, that's not exactly right, but probably close enough for moderate reuse.

 

I suspect that for small batches, like a home user would have, simply handling the C-41 bleach a bit (in and out of your processor) would supply enough aeration to keep it working well in a replenished system.

 

Regarding regeneration, the normal routine would be to collect the surplus bleach; that is, whatever overflows after adding replenisher. After collecting enough of the so called "overflow", you would use an additional chemical kit called a "regenerator" mix. This converts your waste overflow back into a replenisher again. Basically, the regenerator adds missing chemicals and moves the pH back to aim again. Aeration is not generally needed because you were suposed to be adequately aerated already.

 

If someone thinks they can aerate and reuse the overflow as replenisher, I would suggest that it would be simpler for them to simply replenish less.

 

I can't speak for the E-6 bleach, but in the case of RA paper bleach-fix this is a horse of a different color. The blix usage has to be limited because of the rising silver content (a similar situation to fixer). So to regenerate blix, one first needs to remove the silver. The complications (including those caused by silver recovery) make this probably too much trouble for a hobbyist. I can elaborate, if desired.

[g._armour_van_horn]

Regarding the regeneration of bleach, I can only speak for E-6 and maybe I'm doing it all wrong, but it seems to work nicely for me. My Photo-Therm Sidekick will save the bleach while it dumps everything else. Down below on the rack I have eight 2-liter bottles, the seven supply bottles and the bleach recovery bottle. I have a ten-dollar aquarium airpump feeding the working bleach bottle, and a ten-dollar time-switch that turns that on for an hour at 1 a.m. (I used to just let it run, but the processor is now in an area where the bubbling bothers my wife, so I bought the timer.)

 

Before each run I check my solution levels (and my mix log to see if anything is too old to use). If there is more than a liter of recovered bleach, I top off the bleach supply bottle from it. I suppose I really should pour out the bleach into a tall cylinder and check the specific gravity (I did spend the money on the hygrometers to do this) but so far I've just ignored it with very good results.

 

Maybe I'll get more involved with the process if business picks up, but it's really been trivial so far and my results are consistent.

 

Van