IIIC engraved with "ss reich"

[michael_balzano]

If anyone has information on this camera. Below is my contact with Leica.

 

Good Afternoon Michael,

Your Leica IIIc 380518 dates from about October / November 1941... The camera is

fitted with the orange rangefinder filter OKARO and a non-Leitz external

synchronizer part

(affixed to the top shutter speed dial)... The crude engraving on the rear was

not applied by Leitz.

It shows the runic mark of the SS and the word Reich. I am not a specialist on

German military

history but there was a division of the Waffen SS called the Das Reich division.

One can speculate that a member of that organization had the camera engraved.

The camera, therefore, is a IIIc from 1941... The Summitar lens almost certainly

dates from the

same period, that is ...about November 1941. The camera and lens may have been

shipped together.

Thanks and Best wishes, I hope this helps...Thanks... Jim

 

 

James Butler / Technical Info

 

Leica Camera Inc.

 

1 Pearl Court/ Unit A / Allendale, NJ 07401

[david_chang_sang]

Glad you got an answer from Leica.

 

Dave

[mtk]

Michael, just curious as to why each of your 3 postings contain the "response" from Leica about this camera?

[michael_balzano]

My first 'response from Leica', I left out the bottom part of the response to show that it indeed came from Leica. I posted the second response from Leica for authentication.

[Robin Smith]

Michael,

 

I am not an expert, but it will always remain doubtful it seems to me whether this is a contemporary engraving. Many WW2 era Leicas have dubious Nazi wording and regalia engraved on them to cater to Nazi/WW2 collectors who it is hoped will pay more for such an item.

[christopher_a._junker1]

Michael, if possible dismount the lens and examine the shutter curtain. If the curtain has a "K" printed on it this would indicate the possibility that the camera was issued to a member of the Reich military."K" stamped on the curtain stands for "Kugelager" or ball bearing. WWII IIIc bodies issued to the military and not to civilian markets often had shutters with ball bearings. I don't know if your serial# falls into a block of ball bearing shutter cameras, that's a question for one of the Leica Historical Society of America members. Small precision ball bearings were used instead of plain bearings as they are able to tolerate greater temperature ranges and would be more reliable in field use. The Luftwaffe was a regular user of "K" IIIc bodies.

[ant_nio_ferreira]

Is there a screw in the shutter release button (i.e. for attaching a cable)? If the answer is yes, you've got a beautiful Zorki with fake "leica" engravings.

[Rob F.]

Has anyone ever actually seen a Leica IIIc copy? I am under the impression that the only copies are of the II, III, and perhaps IIIa.

[michael_balzano]

There is not a screw hole for attaching a cable release. I will post a close up of the shutter button.<div></div>

[edsel_adams]

That shutter release looks like a Zorki?

[karel_peijnenborg]

"That shutter release looks like a Zorki?"

 

Not to me. Why do you think so?

 

Regards,

 

Karel

[Rob F.]

Michael, people keep trying to tell you your IIIc is a counterfeit. I think that's very unlikely. Can you post a picture of the top & front? That ought to clear it up.

 

Rob

[michael_balzano]

Top and front of IIIC.

[elmarfudd]

There is such a thing as fake markings on a real Leica.

[Rob F.]

Looks absolutely real to me! Apparently a previous owner personalized it by having it engraved, that's all.

 

I really like the IIIc. I'm having one restored by John Maddox right now. Then I plan to have some fum with it! And when he finishes it, I have another, prettier IIIc for him to fix up.

[feli]

Check with James L. Lager.

 

He's probably the foremost expert on anything Leica and especially cameras used by the

German armed forces. If it's real, it could be worth a considerable amount of money and

probably isn't something you want to simply plink around with.

 

Leica Researcher and Historian

jlager@bellatlantic.net

 

Cheers,

 

feli

 

 

PS: What's the little knob on the top shutter speed dial?

[christopher_a._junker1]

Michael, my comments on your IIIc were summarized from Jim Lager's folder on 50 years of Leica. As your IIIc has the small pre'46 rewind lever step, the issue beyond the Leica authenticiy is whether or not it was ever issued to the German WWII military or owned/purchased by military personnel. The markings may have been added after WWII to make it saleable as a war souvenir to occupation US troops. Leitz records and Jim Lager will give you the best information on whether or not you have a valuable IIIc Leica.

[mikep]

I say fake markings on real Leica too.

[christopher_a._junker1]

The small knob on the high speed shutter dial is set at about the speed needed to synchronize a flash bulb unit. Again, Jim Lager would know if there ever was a prewar flash unit made for Leicas that would trigger a flash bulb off the rotating shutter speed dial. Upon tripping the shutter, the projecting flash synchronizinng knob would spin with the dial and close an electrical circuit, thereby firing the flash bulb at the correct shutter speed. Any such flash unit would be screwed into the tripod socket on the base plate. By mounting the orange OKARO rangefinder filter and the synchronizing knob, it is my guess someone was pretty serious about how the camera was to be used. As the camera and lens are over 65 years old, I wouldn't even try to use either before they each receive a complete CLA. A professional CLA stripdown of the body would tell if the camera had seen heavy use. Assuming that the camera is not a Leica that can be identified as a military camera and therefore a valuable collector item, a restored IIIc with a rebuilt Summitar 2.0 is a wonderful user camera.

[andrew robertson]

Couldn't the 'SS Reich' have been engraved a year or two ago? The camera may not be fake,

but the engraving may well be.

[anthony_brookes5]

The REICH script does not look correct for the period. Only the letters SS would be slanted. I also think the engraving is fake.

[rogerwb]

The IIIC is 1/8" longer than the previous models. Also, the IIIC has strap lugs. Zorkis and Feds do not.

 

Unless this sort of thing appeals to you, I can't see paying a premium for questionable engraving. There are plenty of serviceable IIC's ou there at a healthy enough price.

 

Leitz did not do any of the military engraving, it was all done aftermarket AFAIK.

 

Roger Beverage

[gator1999]

<p>It had been a long time since last post of the string but still like to add some comments: <br>

1. WW2 state owned IIIc are mostly grey painted with few chrome plated ones, which usually carried the agency's name it belonged to (state government, navy and air force samples found). <br>

2. Not all IIIc were IIIc-K, and only shutter curtain of IIIc-K carried K-imprint when left Leica factory. A IIIc-K should be identified by not only by K-imprint on shutter curtain or serial number (most people will stop here) but the shop engraving a-top of rangefinder mechanism and a close examine of the shutter mechanism. <br>

3. A IIIc was very expensive in 1941 Germany with limited supply. A civilian owned IIIc were mostly on rich ($$) or powerful (SS) hands. Engravings would most likely were ordered and carried our by Leica factory (was a complimentary service) or an experienced jeweler. A rough engravings as shown in the provided pictures were most likely from later owners over the years. <br>

4. Last and most important of all, as a standard German infantry doctrine, which also applied to Waffen SS units, individual were not allowed to show divisional and tactical markings or identification on their personal belongings, in this case, a Leica IIIc camera. In addition, camera and other photographic equipment were not standard issued equipment to German army combat units, including Waffen SS units. <br>

In my opinion, whoever engraved that “SS Reich” onto the camera had totally ruin the value of a wonderful wartime IIIc.</p>