Strobe vs SB-800

[steve_tenggala]

Hi all,

 

I am trying to build my lighting set here. Currently I have 2 SB-800 that

serves me well and I am thinking to get a monolight, most probably the AB800

for more power. But then I watched the nikon speedlight video of Joe McNally

where he used multiple SB-800s in front of somekind of screen to mimick

monolight with softbox.

 

The question is, can you match the power of monolight (even half or fourth of

it, if not full power) by combining multiple shoe-mount flash, eg SB-800? And

how many of speedlight can you use before you won't see the difference by

adding more?

 

One last question, what's the difference between Nikon PC cable and generic PC

cable like one supplied when you bought that AB800? I'm sure that the generic

one won't let you use i-TTL features when you use that with the nikon

speedlight. But other than that is there other differences that I need to know?

Can you use them interchangeably? How about using nikon PC cable on AB800? Can

you do that? Thanks.

[frank_skomial]

Nikon PC is a multi pin connector and cable for Nikon flashes, and cameras, while generic PC is like any old PC socket or cable, single wire just good to trigger.

 

You can match AB800 power with multiplicity of SB-800, it is your money to spend, and if only Nikon flashes are used, you will have complete automation withing the Nikon CLS, if your camera allows that.

 

How Many ?, Nikon has 3 groups A,B,C, and unlimitted number of flashes in each group, but 3 in each group is the resonable max number, depending on the commander used. So we are talking 9 flashes in addition to the Commander unit (e.g. SU-800), that would make sense. More flashes than 9 perhaps would not matter ? - just my guess, I only have 3 SB-800 and 1 SU-800.

 

You can use generic PC cable from SB-800 to AB800 on any camera, in mode that is appropriate for the camera and the flash.

 

We do not know what camera you will use, but AB800 are not compatible with Nikon iTTL, CLS system.

 

Nikon iTTL is a wireless system, and usage of any cable, even if it works?, may not take advantage of the wireless controlling, but could be used for triggering only (not controlling), depending on your camera and flashes mode of operation.

 

You could trigger via cable AB800 from the generic PC socket on the body of the SB-800, when SB-800 is sitting on the camera, but controlling AB800 output form SB-800 is not possible.

 

So SB-800 and AB800 could work together fine, in appropriate mode of your camera (most likely Manual mode), but you will be responsible to determine exposure parameters.

[patrick_viebey___orlando__]

Not an expert, but I don't know any strobe that works with camera automation? Basically, near as I know, when you go to strobe, you need to use a flash meter, which gives you incident instead of reflected readings (and is so much more accurate). And, of course, let's you balance your different light sources to get the appropriate effect.

 

You could combine flashs and I guess eventually get 'like' power, but that'll get interesting when you want to use light modifiers like umbrellas, grates, snoots, etc. And, you have daisy-chained PC cables all over the place.

 

One advantage of the strobe is a 'real' modelling light - 150w. The other advantage of the strobe is a faster cycle time and no reliance on batteries.

[drew_streib___sf_bay_area_]

I have a set of monolights, and also use my SB-800 as a remote flash units either alone or with the monolights.

 

The one major drawback when using the SB-800 is the recharge time. When taking portrait photography (which has been my use recently), the ability to snap a couple of quick pictures has been great, and I feel the loss when having to wait a couple of seconds for an SB-800 recharge.

 

Other than that, it is of similar power to a 160J monolight that I have (which seems right for the rating given by nikon of 180J or so). It doesn't quite fit the other reflectors that I have, although a cheap attachment lets me use umbrellas easily enough.

 

(I also wish the SB-800 could be optically triggered, but ohwell, I _guess_ I can afford another pocket wizard receiver.)

[garry edwards]

What you can do and what makes sense may not be the same.

 

Hotshoe flashes are great at providing an intelligent, low level and convenient light source, and just like the headlights on your car, they'll produce light that's much better than no light.

 

But using them instead of real studio lights just doesn't make economic sense. Apart from the cost, the power limitations, the slow recharge time and the cost and inconvenience of batteries, the real problem is that they just aren't designed to work with modifiers or to produce effective modelling lights.

 

Any manufacturer can produce a video to sell their products, but it's the real world use that counts.

[steve_tenggala]

Thanks for the responses, guys.

 

I'm fully aware that shoe-mount flashes are far behind in terms of power and the modeling light (that's why i plan on getting a monolight). By the price alone, I can get one new AB800 less than what it would cost me to get another new SB-800.

 

However, it would be very difficult to bring that monolight to outdoor shooting and that speedlight video makes me wonder if I can have the power of a monolight with multiple speedlight and how many more speedlight it would take to get that kind of power. if i'ts just one more, hey, why not? This way, I can have outdoor shooting without worrying power cable. but if it's 3 or 4 more, that would be ridiculous. I can get a power pack with that kind of price.

 

About the TTL capability, it doesn't really matter to me. I would be using a light meter anyway and with the manual setting, it would be easier for me to get the kind of lighting effect I want.

 

For Drew, I believe you can trigger SB-800 optically as SB26 or SB80dx do in SU-4 mode, but I haven't tried that myself.

[sauerwine]

I agree and think that you'd really miss out with light source modifiers as mentioned above. But for the benefit of those following this thread I'd also like to mention one thing about "power."

 

(I will mention that I am in a like situation, and will have some questions of my own here this week.)

 

Just to clarify, you made this statement:

...can you match the power of monolight...by comgining multiple shoe-mount flashes...and how many can you add before you don't see a difference.

 

The real issue here is not power, once you've realized that the output is or is not better with a monolight; but it is a matter of light angle. Adding a bank of SB's behind a silk panel will act as a huge diffusion panel or soft box, probably (unless skillfully crafted and consistently set up,) with some light void and fall-off between the units. Adding twenty flashes at the same distance and 45 degrees from a subject will have no more power than a single identical flash on the other 45 degree leg. Light output is light output, and adding identical flashes (with the same maximum power) will not make a subject brighter. (It may appear a stop or two brighter, but this is usually because of the SPREAD of the light source falling across a subject, and the different angles that fill shadow areas which otherwise would be missed by a single light source.)

 

I bet you knew this already, but I wanted to clarify, like I said, for the benefit of a less-experienced photographer.

 

...and I hope I'm correct, as I'm new to TTL altogether, and certainly to the Nikon system. (I just bought two 70's and a SB800 last week for a great price.)

[twmeyer]

You're having trouble with this decision for very good reason. These two scenarios you are considering as either/or are not an either/or consideration. Multiple SB800s require quite a while to set up. Notice you only see Joe telling other people to get things for him, you only see him making little adjustments to already assembled stand and boom mounted strobes. And all those clamps, arms, stands, scrims, sand bags and lights (don't forget the laptop on the tripod) don't exactly set themselves up and they certainly aren't cheap. He works with assistants (plural), and they aren't exactly sucking down beers while the boss works it out, and he has a Nikon USA backed budget. <p>I have never been a fan of tiny shoe mounting strobes, but after working with the D200 and <i>one</i> SB800, I am very impressed. I will eventually get another, BUT... I will continue to use my Lumedynes and a light meter for any situation that provides me more than 2 minutes and allows more than 5. <p>I have just as much precise control over the Lumedyne system and it's way less complicated to set up on a stand or two in large modifiers. <p>The SB800 lets me make a perfectly exposed photo as fast as I can turn on the camera and strobe, and <i>that's</i> it's forte'... not that it allows complicated TTL lighting schemes with a crew of 3 and 30 accessories. <p>The Lumedyne lets me make big beautiful light in the middle of nowhere with precise manual control... and that's <i>it's</i> forte', <i>not</i> that it's an automated instantaneous light that fits in my pocket.<p>Look at strobist.com and compare that work to dg28.com. They both show excellent and similar bodies of work by excellent photographers who know how to use their very different equipment and <i>neither</i> of them work with assistants or a van load of stuff. Both of those guys generally work out of one bag.<p> Why do you need more power? Why do you need more lights? Answer <i>those</i> questions and you'll realize what stuff you need to do it... t<div></div>

[photobiker]

I have the same question as Steve but in the opposite direction. I recently had access to strobes and I love the results. Take a peek at these <a href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=603843">portraits</a>. The pictures were all taken with a small Dynalite kit: 2 or 3 strobes connected to a 500 watts powerpack.<br><br>

 

My question is: can I get the same results with 2 or 3 SB-800s? Does the speedlight have a power comparable to a 250w strobe, and is there any umbrella and support system that can be mounted with a flash-head?<div></div>

[twmeyer]

I think (this is so academic) you could get similar results, but you'll need a lot of grip equipment to do it and won't really save that much time or money, either way. It depends on whether you are good with a flash meter or prefer ttl automation, or if you like setting up a lot of gear vs a couple of heads in modifiers. <p>Building good light can be done many ways. Let your personal working style and the parameters of the situation dicate your choices... t

[photobiker]

The constraints for me are quality of the results and space, more than time or money. My girlfriend and I have been traveling half-way around the world on motorcycles (<a href="http://www.photobiker.com">Photobiker.com</a>), and we are considering packing in our suitcases a set of SB800s and a couple of umbrellas to take studio-like pictures of local people during the rest of the trip.<br><br>

 

If the SB800 only allows to take the kind of pictures people expect at a wedding for instance (fully lit - even though nice and smooth, it's still fully lit), then it's not for us.<br><br>

 

On the other hand, if a nice setup with speedlights (3 flash-heads, umbrellas, light-meter, all manual mode) allows to do some more creative lighting with Rembrandt-like shadows, we'll consider the expense.<br><br>

 

I don't think my question was "academic" at all. It's for me very practical. <br>

Does anybody know of examples of studio-like creative lighting done with flash-heads?<div></div>

[garry edwards]

Pierre,

 

I'm not sure you can get your example result with a pair of speedlights, but you can certainly get it with one, if you want that kind of result...

 

Certainly you can achieve hard lighting, in fact you can achieve it with just ahout any light source (except perhaps fluorescents close to the subject). But as far as I know you can't use honeycomb grids, you can't use fresnal spots, you can't get really diffused lighting from large softboxes and most importantly you can't get a good previsulisation because you won't have an effective modelling light.

[photobiker]

Garry, I believe you are mistaken when you write that I can certainly get that kind of result with just one speedlight. The picture actually took two strobes. If you look at the larger version in my portfolio, you might see why (<a href="http://www.photo.net/photo/4473301">click here</a>). The other picture that I posted above with the two girls also is clearly not achievable with just one light source: it required three (<a href="http://www.photo.net/photo/4473303">click here</a>)<br><br>

 

I think it is a common mistake amongst photographers to dismiss other people's work as trivial, and this why I am looking for examples of work that have actually been made using the technique I described. I cannot take seriously an answer that says "yeah, you certainly can get that with a single flash-head" while 2 or 3 are necessary.<br><br>

 

So... if there anybody with a hands-on experience using speedlights instead of strobes for nice studio work?

[garry edwards]

Pierre,

 

I'm not dismissing your work as trivial and I'm sorry if you've formed that impression.

 

Nor am I dismissing you; I've looked at your very interesting site and respect your experiences.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that your example shot is a single-light shot(regardless or whether or not you chose to add a second light) and that it could have been achieved by almost any kind of light. Most studio shots can, it's just that those of us who do a lot of studio work prefer to use the tools that best suit the job.

 

As for finding examples of good creative lighting where hotshoe flashes have been used instead of studio flash, it's really the same point - how will you know what type of light was used? Does it really matter? Why would most people (except for people travelling light like yourself) want to use hotshoe flashes for studio photography? It's not very different from trying to find something that Shakespear wrote with a different type of quill pen.

 

Anyway, I think we've both wandered away from Steve's orginal question, so let's call a halt.

[kbroderick]

<P>Someone earlier referenced "strobist.com", but the actual site is <a

href="http://strobist.blogspot.com/">strobist.blogspot.com</a>, and I think that some of

the examples there (and kit used) might be particularly relevant to the photography-by-

motorbike discussion.</p>

[twmeyer]

and "academic" is not <i>necessarily</i> an insult either :^). It's just that disecting the specific tools required to accomplish a task that could be accomplished with many different tools strikes me as academic. I would attempt to duplicate your image with two lights, one for the background would be essential, and some creative scrim placement on your main light would probably get me close. Finding the right subjects and hitting the moment... well, <i>that's</i> the hard part.<p>There is new info in this thread about your situation, ie: motorcycle travel and formal portraits. In this light of this new info (pun intended) I think the SB800s would be a good solution. You don't even have to charge batteries or convert voltage, and double A's are available just about everywhere. You haven't mentioned what camera you are using, but I'd try to get one that is also powered by AA's (like the D200 with the MB-200) and then everything you have is powered by the same source. Carry a lot of NiMh AA batteries with a global charger and you're all set.<p>The only other system I would consider for such a venture is what <a href="http://www.philborges.com/fieldnotes/Tibet/index.html">Phil Borges used in the Himalayas</a> and across Africa: Lumedyne with an softbox and scrims, recharged with a global charger. One 400ws pack, two heads and 2 25c batteries and you'd be a happy guy.<p>By the way, if your oblique reference to "fully lit" wedding photos was directed at my example image, it ws not lit by SB800's but by Lumedyne. And just because a light source can "fully" light a scene, doesn't mean it can't make localized and moody lighting, too. But the opposite certainly may be true... And this is where "academic" comes back in. It's not the equipment as much as it is the person that directs it. If all I could get out of Lumedyne was flat light, well I wouldn't be much of <a href="http://www.twmeyer.com">a photographer</a>... t

[twmeyer]

From another page on <a href="http://www.philborges.com/fieldnotes/Mongolia/byamba.html">Phil Borges website</a>:<p>"three days of strenuous 10 hour/day hiking over slippery up and down trails

�. I carry two packs of camera gear. For the square format shots I use a Hasselblad 503cw and for the panoramic shots I use a modified 5x7 view camera called a V-Pan. The V-Pan is fitted with a 6x17 roll film back which allows me to shoot 120 roll film. I light many of my portraits and for this I use a 400ws Lumedyne pack. For this trip I took one regular and two super batteries for the Lumedyne. They lasted the entire four weeks."<p>Those Ultra (what he calls "super") batteries are HEAVY. I recommend the "regular" 25c... t

[steve_tenggala]

Thanks again for the responses, guys.

 

It seems that I will be missing the light modifier effect if I go with SB-800 and since I already have two of them, as one of you put it, I probably won't be getting an extra power by getting another one. I'm leaning toward the strobist guy style of traveling light with only a couple speedlight and wonder if by adding another speedlight I have the flexibility between speedlight and strobe-like (multiple speedlight) while shooting outdoor.

 

But then, I raised this question of the portability issue. Let say that I go with a monolight, that means that I need to get somekind of portable battery (AB has this kind of vagabond thing) or a powerpack. But from what I read, you can't use this vagabond portable player with the modeling light as this would drain the battery very quickly. Is this the same thing with powerpack?

 

A powerpack would cost me some fortune and if what I think is correct, it's probably not the best solution for me since I won't have that very helpful modeling light while I can use umbrella, self-made gobo, etc to get the light modifier effect, is it? Does anybody has some other, preferably economical, solution for this? Thanks.

[twmeyer]

Okay...<p>"<i>It seems that I will be missing the light modifier effect if I go with SB-800 </i>" Why do you think this? It's <i>easy</i> to use an SB800 in an umbrella, especially with iTTL. What camera are you using?<p>"<i>by adding another speedlight I have the flexibility between speedlight and strobe-like (multiple speedlight) while shooting outdoor</i>"...this statement/question doesn't make any sense. <p>"...<i>you can't use this vagabond portable player with the modeling light as this would drain the battery very quickly</i>" What's a "portable player"? The Vagabond 150 for Alien Bee is almost 15lbs, so "portable" is a relative term. I carry a 400ws Lumedyne with a 25c battery in a fannypack and barely notice it. <i>Any</i> battery powered strobe will be rapidly depleted by a modeling light, even (especially) the SB800 which actually has a sort-of modeling light.I don't use the modeling light on any battery powered strobe. If you're using digital capture, modeling lights are less of an issue, due to the immediate feedback from the LCD. <p>Good luck with your choices... t