M8 and prices for film m's

[andre_bosmans]

Would be interested to know what are your guestimates about the future prices

of our m's. If we assume the m8 is successfull and a dignified replacement for

the film m's how many of you will keep shooting film? I expect prices for film

m's will drop significantly. If B&W and wet darkroom is important to you I just

got the information that the Leica Academy in Solms dropped their B&W lab work

shops/seminars. Is this indicating that for Solms film is already dead?

[elmarfudd]

This question has already been asked in several different incarnations. It's beginning to wear thin. Bottom line, none of us have a crystal ball...... wait and see.

[Craig_Cooper11664875449]

<i>If B&W and wet darkroom is important to you I just got the information that the Leica Academy in Solms dropped their B&W lab work shops/seminars. Is this indicating that for Solms film is already dead?</i>

<p>

If anything it is probably no more than an indication that sufficient demand doesnt exist for them to warrant maintaining a workshop for B&W lab work - simply an economic decision.

<p>

As for film being dead; Solms, or Leica, is no where near being a litmus test as to whether film demand, B&W or colour, is at any level. Additionally, although there is the obvious mass migration to digital, under the current technology, digital cannot replace the characteristics and qualities of traditional B&W film. ...all of which has nothing to do with Leica specifically anyways.

<p>

Finally, wording such as <i>"...and a dignified replacement for the film m's"</i> almost seems to be trolling for a bite...

[al_kaplan1]

No doubt that the bigger dealers will soon be getting scales and buying film M bodies for between fifty cents and a dollar a pound, depending on condition of course. By next year you might be better off donating them to Good Will and taking the tax write-off, unless the IRS does an audit and tries to claim that they were worth nothing.

[andyaitken]

I hope so. I've always fancied a black paint M4.

[strpichu]

No, film is not dead. We still have our Holgas :)

[vinay_patel]

"I expect prices for film m's will drop significantly."

 

People on this forum have the erroneous idea that for every M8 bought there will be 2 or 3 film Leicas sold to finance it. Many people buying the M8 stopped shooting film a while ago and sold off their film Leicas, and are either moving from or getting the M8 supplemental to a dSLR system. Also, though perhaps they aren't well represented on this forum, many people who will buy an M8 don't need to sell anything to raise the cash. Furthermore, deliveries of the M8 will take a few months to ramp up and according to several dealers it will be at least January before they catch up on their current waiting lists (which adjusting for their motivation to be optimistic, means probably it's closer to Leica's earlier estimate of late summer)so the people who aren't on a list now will probably be selling over time. I wouldn't hold my breath for a massive selloff of used film Leicas driving the prices to fire sale levels.

 

""If B&W and wet darkroom is important to you I just got the information that the Leica Academy in Solms dropped their B&W lab work shops/seminars. Is this indicating that for Solms film is already dead? "

 

Maybe it just means that there aren't enough German-speaking guys with the time and money to take those courses, who need the particular instruction they provide. Making inferences from worldwide sales of film and darkroom supplies is reasonable. Extrapolating from what a tiny company the size of Leica does is silly.

[kevin_mulholland1]

This is really a concern for folks with very expensive late model M cameras. For those of us with bruised older bodies (like my M2) the good news is that a viable m mount digital camera will help maintain the value and utility of all those lenses we've bought.

[mark_norton2]

I was a Photokina yesterday and handled an M7 and M8 together and it's striking how similar they are to work with and talking to Leica, it's as if the M7 and M8 are film and digital siblings, in the same way the R9 with and without the DMR are. I can see different influences on Leica's new sales and secondhand prices but how they will interact and what the final outcome will be is anyone's guess.

 

Here's a few scenarios:

 

* Someone buying an M8 and who still uses film decides to buy an M7 to partner it.

 

* Someone minded to buy a new film M buys secondhand instead because there's a bargain to be had.

 

* Someone buying an M8 sells their existing film M(s) because they have no use for them and/or need the money to finance the M8 purchase.

 

* The M8 doesn't meet their expectations (cost, not FF) so they decamp to Canon.

 

All sorts of rational buying decisions which will eventually influence the supply and demand in the market and set prices. The experience of DMR users though seems to be that they rarely go back to film, so on balance, I think late electronic Ms (M6TTL and M7) will fall in price and Leica will see sales of new film cameras decline. Meanwhile film users will come to see the M8 as a blessing because an upgrade to a newer M body might be more accessible.

 

OTOH, I can see secondhand wide-angle M lenses going up in value. They have just increased the cost of the 24mm Elmarit M by over 20%, so values of fast lenses 21mm - 35mm are going to be protected.

[john_camp]

I've been shooting high-end DSLRs since they first appeared, and I shoot an M7 for slides.

I don't think the quality is any better than digital for most purposes, but it is for one:

projection. Slides are much, much, much better than projected digital. Projected digital is

essentially a computer monitor enlarged by a couple of thousand percent. Even at six feet,

details begin to blur badly. I've pre-ordered an M8 and I'll shoot both together, depending

on final use.

 

People have become so enamored of their Powerpoint presentations that they are hardly

aware of how bad the projection detail is (often because they're using graphics, rather

than photography.) But when you are attempting to project photographs that contain

detail, you quickly find that digital projection has very distinct limits (or, perhaps,

*indistinct* limits.)

 

 

JC

[paulmoore]

22mp back..after one year on the market my sinar large format cameras were devalued by

half, who would have guessed? Great cameras come and go and M has enjoyed a great

ride..but eventually the "fil-M" will be history same as my graflex 5x7.

The good news is leica is in business and adapting to the 21st century..with new

customers like me coming into their digital fold. I bet there are many sucessful folks who

have always wanted a m but were too busy making money with x,y and z to get one, and

now with the M8 they will

try it out. Hasselblad has already shown that the digital world is not the end of the road

and leica is following suit. What will also hurt the value of the "fil- M" is the dying off of a

generation of collectors like my ww2 vet uncle.

[samir]

The owner of a black and white professional lab in Brussels told me recently that over the last 3 years, he has lost a large number of his customers to digital, but that, to his surprise, many among them are returning to Black and White film...and he seems busy: I wanted to order a print and the wait was for one week. Film is not dead.

[elmarfudd]

I can attest to the last comment. Over the past 8 years our roll count has dropped 60%. The trend is leveling out though, and this year our roll count has so far been consistantly higher than the previous 3 years. Also, we sell much more film than we did 3 years ago (probably at least partly due to so many camera stores not carrying many types) Hope for coexistance.

[johan_greenhorn]

Half-frame digital M does not create any envy in me. ;)

[jtdnyc]

In 1990 or '91, never having done any darkroom work before, I attended a one-day, Leica-sponsored darkroom seminar here in New York, conducted by Leica's in-house darkroom guru, Rudolph Seck. The seminar was conducted on a Saturday or Sunday at the New School.

 

It was the only formal instruction I have ever had, before or since, in any aspect of photography.

 

The result was that I went out and bought a new Focomat V35, a Jobo CPP-2 and everything else I needed to outfit a home darkroom. I don't know for sure, but I doubt I was the only one of the participants to be inspired by that one day in the dark.

 

It saddens me that Leica is discontinuing any part of its Academy offerings, but if this represents an effort to focus on the parts of the business that are currently more profitable and thus keep the company afloat, so be it.

 

BMW used to sell motorcycles to non-riders by throwing in free instruction with the purchase. There's a lesson in there somewhere.

[vinay_patel]

Even if film production were to cease entirely, as film-camera production has all but done, both will fire up again in a heartbeat if someone smells money in it. These "death of film" threads are just an excuse for trying to make other people unhappy.

 

Despite that the majority are purchased, people can and still do make their own bread and clothing and furniture, and the machinery, tools and raw materials are still available new. Photography for a great number of people is a diversion not an occupation. The bow and arrow was rendered "obsolete" many centuries ago, yet a very lucrative cottage industry exists today to support archery, which is an extremely small niche. Even if film ceases to be manufactured at some point, as film cameras have all but done now, the technology is revivable and will be if someone smells a buck to be made.

[elmarfudd]

I doubt PSE, Bear, Horton, or Browning think that they're "cottage industry" : )

[ronald_moravec1]

I hope they sell a ton of M 8`s and make enough money to support sales of film cameras.

 

Solmes is not like Kodak who looks at each product as a stand alone and decide if it makes money or not. They fail to realize all the products support each other. If you pull out all the small items, the big money stuff will fall.

 

Of course the new CEO at Solmes is a hard nosed business man and and may not continue to pursue the policy. Nothing against him, but he does not have Leica in his blood, just a balance sheet to him. But they probably need a person like that at this time. Goodness knows what they were doing before wasn`t working.

[vinay_patel]

"hope they sell a ton of M 8`s and make enough money to support sales of film cameras."

 

So they should use the proceeds from the first profitable item they've had in several years to keep producing items nobody's buying? That's an interesting business plan, should go over like gangbusters with their bank and stockholders :-) Fret not, Leica probably has enough inventory and parts on hand to supply as many film bodies as they're likely to get orders for for the next five to ten years. After that, they might have to send someone down to the cellar to jump start the old machines.

[harvey_edelstein1]

Vinay, several months ago I took a poll on this forum. The results showed a lot of members have more than 3 M bodies. Most had still at least 2 and a lot of folks have more than 4 bodies. I think most of the forum members are able to buy what they want without subtracting from their camera collection. After six months if their film cameras sit collecting dust because the M8 is saving them money on film and developing cost, then I think the same senario will occur that affected Nikon F5 prices when the D2x came out. This will be the time when panic about M resale values plumeting will convince some its time to lighten up at least some of the film bodies. Me I am waiting for the M7 excellent plus for $1200. M7 are now selling used for $1900, thats too much considering for the same price I could get a Nikon F6 which is almost as quiet, much more flexible and built just as nicely.

For that matter I would get an F6 new if I could get it new for $1500.

[stephen_w.]

"I think most of the forum members are able to buy what they want without subtracting from their camera collection. After six months if their film cameras sit collecting dust because the M8 is saving them money on film and developing cost,..."

 

If I bought an M8 w/o subtracting, why would I be worried about the cost of using film?

[harvey_edelstein1]

Over and over I have read that after switching to digital individuals said they take way more exposures than with film. They say they would not have been able to afford the same usage on a film camera. For me just the time and effort of changing film often vs. shooting hundreds of shots on a flash card would promote shooting more exposures. So ease of use and cost saving on film and developing on these extra shots is what I meant to say. Anyway some of these cameras people have were purchased years ago and their purchase expense is way in the past and has no affect on getting another M body.

[steve_york3]

I really did expect to see an influx of used film M bodies on the market with the release of this digital rangefinder. If Ebay is any indication, this does not seem to have happened yet.

[vinay_patel]

"If I bought an M8 w/o subtracting, why would I be worried about the cost of using film?"

 

Well I wouldn't speculate what motivates you, but if your "I" could be read instead as "one", then the answer is that some might decide they would rather put the money to other use, and others would keep their film Leicas for whatever reason they choose, but not necessarily use them on a regular basis or at all. Having money simply means having options, not that the money disspated the smarts and sensibility that earned it.

[stephen_w.]

I guess Ize got options then

 

J