System compatibility - Kiev 4 pics

[vidom]

As my Contaxes are still not back from repair, I fooled around a bit

with my Kiev 4, a 4,5/21 Zeiss Biogon and a red filter. Funny

combination, isn't it?<div></div>

[vidom]

Now, this is what I thougth I needed a 21 mm lens for. By the way, this is the very first pic I ever took using a red filter. Maybe a bit too much. Still I like the effect.<div></div>

[vidom]

Please excuse the bad scan quality - as I only have an old flat bed scanner I have to scan the prints. The above pic is sharp from the bottom to the top. It was taken at a distance setting of ca. 6m at f 8.

 

In a recent thread I started some of us discussed the back focus issue when using the 21 Biogon with a Kiev body. I can try to illustrate what this is about. The next picture should have been sharp at infinity; I scale focussed, using the 2m setting at f 5,6-8. Judging from the DOF scale on the lens infinity should be sharp, but it isn't. The grass in the middle ground is already fuzzy; at the front, you can count the grains of the sand dune. I think that due to a back focus difference on the Kiev body you have to scale focus and compensate for the back focus difference. It doesn't matter much when setting the lens to infinity - then infinity seems to be within the lenses DOF range, but with closer distance settings on the lens infinity gets out of the DOF range and is not sharp any more.

[vidom]

Same again - forgot the caption.<div></div>

[richard_p]

Very recently, I collimated 4 jupiter 12 for kieves. This is what I found: One of old silver jupiter 12 (61) matches kiev 2, 2a, 3, and 3a. The early black jupiter 12 (85) matches kiev (60-70). The later black (90) matches kiev (kiev 4 (73), kiev 4m (83), and 4am (80-84)). One of the silvers was out of specs. I collimated it to kiev 4 (60). Somebody pointed out that the distance between the optiical center of wide angle lenses and the film plane was shorted than normal lenses. If you really want to use zeiss biogen, you should buy kiev 2, 2a, 3, and 3a. Buy from very reputable dealers (e.g., oleg who still has one kiev 3a to go). My experience was old kieves are not very good.

 

Kiev 2 from dealer 1: rangefinder,and lens was off. The circular cover inside is missing.

Kiev 2a from dealer 1: excellent

Kiev 3a from dealer 1: split beam was broken, and lens was off.

Kiev 3a from dealer 2: rangefinder, and lens was off, the circular cover inside the camera is missing.

In contrast, 2 camera kiev 3, and 1 kiev 3a were received from Oleg and worked out of box.

 

 

Richard

[nicolas_douez]

Very nice pictures. I like that kind of superwide point of view.

 

About the filter : you might be fully satisfied by an orange filter. It enhances the darkness of the blue sky, allow more details to be seen in the clouds, without that kind of too dramatic effects the red filter can sometimes provide.

 

Finally I prefer the superwide lens in architecture or even "portraits" shots. With landscapes its use can easily turn into some "figure de style" photo works and each photo finally tends to resemble the other if the foreground has nothing different from the background, or if there are no living creature passing by.

 

Peter I hope your two Contax IIa bodies will come back soon but be happy with the Kiev - the picture is taken by the lens (and the man behind the viewfinder) actually.

 

Here are some pictures shot with a 3.5/20mm MF AI-S Nikkor mounted on my Nikon F2 some years ago. Not a Biogon of course, yes a retrofocus lens of course, a Japanese toy of course, but a very good shell though. No filter but I reinforced the sky under the enlarger on the two pictures it can be seen.

 

I have no film scanner and not even a flat bed scanner at home but I simply shot my 25x30 prints with my "dRF" in macro mode. At least can the photos be shared like this, and the result isn't that bad finally.<div></div>

[nicolas_douez]

Here is the #1<div></div>

[nicolas_douez]

Here is the #2<div></div>

[nicolas_douez]

Here is the #3<div></div>

[nicolas_douez]

Here is the last picture. I particularly like this one because I was very lucky to see that smart lady coming accross that cold and desert plaza. BTW it's the "New Tokyo Palace" in Paris, near the Trocadero, where the Museum of Modern Art is.<div></div>

[roseberry guitars]

Hello Peter,

 

I very much like the red filter effect, although I agree with Nicolas that an orange might be more to your liking. I find that it gives enough "umpf" to have a dramatic effect without being overly obvious. That being said, I like your photos, especially "Dunes".

 

Richard, thanks for that info. It really sets my mind at ease. My black Jupiter-12 (8835911, if I understand the numbers after your lens description as being the manufacture year from the serial No.? Please excuse my ignorance if this is not correct.) works very well on my Kiev 4a (1970) but I cannot for the life of me focus it properly on my 4am (1982). I've had the lens for a couple years and just last week used it for the first time with half a roll on each camera. One of the pic's sort of turned out from the 4am and all of the 4a were excellent (I posted one yesterday).

[roseberry guitars]

Nicolas,

 

Very nice photos. I like the shadow of Darth Vader and his buddy off to the opera (Paris, Opera Bastille, lower left).

 

AND...I think there are more fun things to do with pretty girls than run them over with classic cars ;)

 

Nice work all!

[marco_vera1]

One thing I really admire about the Biogon 21 is that the pictures it takes do not have the

"wide angle look" like this thread clearly points out. The retrofocus design just doesn't

work as well...

 

I noticed this when going from my 24mm nikkor to the Biogon: With the Biogon is was

much harded to identify it as an extreme wide.

[grahams]

Peter - I would love to see a large print of your Baltic Sea shot - the tones look superb. You make me lust after a Biogon now...

[nicolas_douez]

Marco, you're probably right, but here I shared architecture shots with many vertical lines and taken in an upward position to increase the feeling of the height and the verticality of the monuments and two shots including a massive subject located in the very close foreground (the classic cars) while Peter posted landscapes shots taken under an horizontal position (I'm certain of that regarding the Baltic Sea picture).

 

When used in landscape photography without upwarding the camera the 3.5/20mm Nikkor doesn't show any ultrawide effects at all IMHO.

 

On the other hand the Super Angulon 3.4/21mm for Leica M is not a retrofocus but shows the "defect" you mention very, very, very much. Just look at JeanLoup Sieff's pictures to check.

 

Finally it might just be a matter of taste, I don't hate seeing a discrete ultrawide effect on my shots as far as the vertical nor the horizontal lines don't get curved, and the Nikkor 20mm does not curve the lines even in the angles. I'll try to scan some landscape photos taken with it and share them on the forum. Most are slides so I still have to find a film scanner around - not so easy :-)

 

Of course if I could get a 4.5/21mm Biogon for my Contax at a reasonable price, I woudn't let it go :-))

[gib]

great photos, interesting lens.

[krawczyk]

Hi Peter

The answer for Dune picture is out of focus is the CoC used in DOF scale.

 

Contax and Kiev rangefinder cameras use a CoC very high for modern standards.

 

An actual value for CoC is 25um but in my evaluations on Kiev cameras I was finded a CoC of 103,1um for focus helix of my Kiev 4M, 40um for Jupiter 11 and 80um for Jupiter 12.

 

The Contax II and III have CoC engraved in their bodies look like the Kiev.

 

In a roughly evaluation using a CoC of 100 ?m we can find for a focus of:

 

f8 @ 2m a DOF near = 0,44 m and far = infinite

 

but using a CoC of 25 ?m:

 

f8 @ 2m a DOF near = 1.05 m and far = 19,58 m -> far grass is out of focus

 

I made this calculations using "f/Calc" (http://www.tangentsoft.net/), they have a free and shareware versions.

 

You can try this software for make more accurate experiments of you system compatibility.

 

Best Regards

Alberto Krawczyk

[krawczyk]

The DOF for 21mm lens is very sensitive in near values of focus, you was used a value (2m) in the border of "far region out of focus".

Try using a 3 meter adjust or slight more and you can reach the infinite focus.

 

Alberto Krawczyk

[vidom]

You may be right. I'll keep on experimenting.