Please advise on 8x10 camera choice

[peter_zakos]

I currently shoot medium format 6x7 but would like to move up to

8x10 contact printing. I have looked through many posts on the

topic and am getting somewhat overwhelmed. Unforunately, where I

live I cannot get ready access to LF cameras to try them out so I'll

likely have to make a choice without actually handling or comparing

various models. With medium format I do exclusively landscape

work. I tend to carry my camera for considerable distances. I

primarily use moderate wide angles (i.e. 28-35 35mm-equivalent).

My "telephoto" is a normal 50mm-equivalent (i.e. 110mm in 6x7). I

also like to do macro work but do not anticipate needing to go

beyond 1:1 in 8x10 with a 35-50mm equivalent.

I would much appreciate your advice re. USED 8x10 field camera for

my my shooting preferances.

My priorities are:

1 light wieght (relatively)

2 inexpensive (again relatively, in case I realize LF is not for me)

3 a good camera for a newbie like myself to learn with

4 enough expansion / movements for the lenses I intend to use.

With the suggested models could you also give me an idea of a fair

price for a used model in good condition.

Many thanks in advance to all who share their time and expertise in

helping me get started.

Peter.

[scott___1]

peter... i would strongly urge you to consider starting with an inexpensive 4x5 outfit with one lens. large format is a completely different beast from roll film, and jumping right into 8x10 without first getting your sea legs could proove to be a very frustrating and costly mistake. call jim at midwest photo exchange and tell him you'd like to get into LF with a used kit. if you decide you enjoy 4x5, and choose to go to 8x10, you'll likely be able to sell your 4x5 kit for nearly what yo paid for it.

 

i'm sure others will throw in their thoughts here, but i think jumping right into LF with 8x10 with no prior experience is a seriously bad idea.

 

good luck with whatever path you choose,

scott

[jim_ryder5]

8x10 is seriously different from medium format but also from 4x5 and there is nothing like an 8x10 contact print. You are unlikely to find a lightweight cheap camera. You may want to find a good condition Korona or Kodak 2d or perhaps a wood Burke and James. These have long bellows and are relatively light weight and fold up small. They have all the movements most people need. You will need to have a perfect bellows, the extension rail and a 4x5 back will be nice. $400 to $500 for a nice example, don't try to save a nickle on one in rough shape try to find one that has not been abused. A nice 300mm or shorter Ronar or Artar lens in a packard shutter will complete it. All of this fits in an army surplus Alice bag to be carried into the landscape. This is a heavy but manageable package. If you find 8x10 is not for you, this package is easily resold.

 

Jim Ryder

[edward_kimball]

I think that two good lenses to choose from ar the 240mm G Claron or 210mm Computar. Both are f/9 lenses and give good coverage on 8X10. In a shutter they go for about $400 or $150 without. Both mount into Copal 1 shutters which are readily available used. The 210mm G Claron is tight on coverage and the 240mm Computar comes in a larger and more expensive Copal 3 shutter.

 

210mm would be close to your 28mm lens on 35mm.

240mm would be close to your 35mm lens on 35mm.

[scott_walton2]

Agreeing with the above posts... 8x10 is seriously different! The choices of "light weight" 8x10's is small and inexpensive... hardly... for someone just getting into it. Film holders alone aren't cheap, film also but in my opinion, by far, the most problematic... aside from getting film is the fact that there are little choices of films.

TXP is a beautiful film but what happens if you even have a thought about color... My opinion is to get into 4x5 because your load will be lighter (you said yourself that you trek in a ways), your expenses will be lighter, you can easily carry (backpack or bag) a 4x5 system with several lens, meter, holders and everything else. I have gone out numerous times on my mountain bike and with the use of a Bogen Articulated Arm and a Super clamp, have used my bike as a tripod! If your desires are just shooting outside, a field camera is a good choice. There are choices from Speed Graphics, Crown graphics and build it yourself camera choices all the way to technical field cameras like Linhofs, Wistas, Graphics (to some extent) ect. They range from a few hundred dollars (sometimes even with decent lens) to a few thousand. You mentioned needing movements which will put you in the realm of a technical field camera. I love my Linhof Tech III and it does have plenty of movements, great bellows draw for using 400mm to extreme close ups more than lifesize, it closes up into itself thereby protecting the groundglass and bellows.

Don't get me wrong here Peter... I'm not opposed to 8x10, I personally love it but...

When you do get that "perfect" negative of a "once in a life time shot", you can get in the darkroom and make enlarged 8x10 negatives that are beautiful using Litho film or do digital negatives and have them outputted to a high res Linotronic at a Service Bureau!

[ellis_vener_photography]

You want a Canham: http://www.canhamcameras.com

 

To roughly compare angle of view from a 35mm format camera to the 8x10 format use a

factor of 6x. i.e. a 50mm on a Nikon SLR roughly equals a 300mm on an 8x10.

[peter_zakos]

Thanks everyone for your help. Scott, the main reason I want to get into LF is to do contact printing and, for me, a 4x5 is too small for that purpose. I do realize that in the 8x10 world "light weight" and "inexpensive" are somewhat of an oxymoron. I meant to ask for options which are "relatively" less expensive and not for the cheapest camera around. I was thinking along the lines of used-but-in-good-condition Canham wood, Techihara SW810F or Gandolfi variant. Do all these have enough bellows extension and movements to be compatible with moderate wide angle and macro lenses? Any pros/cons for these models? Am I ommiting a better option?

Thanks again, Peter.

[edward_kimball]

A new 8X10 Tachihara double extension will likely meet your needs and cost less new than a used Canham ($1400). It has enough extension for 1:1 with a 240mm lens but not much more. I don't think I have ever seen a used one for sale.

 

If you really want to contact print, I say go for it. You can get close to the same quality enlarging from 4X5 but if the process doesn't make you happy then you are wasting your time.

[edward_kimball]

Correction: Midwest Photo Exchange has a used Tachihara Double Extension for $850.

[peter_zakos]

Thank You Edward. Have you dealt with Midwest in the past? Could you suggest an honest knowledgable salesperson there I could talk to?

Peter.

[edward_kimball]

I have never dealt with them, but they do have a good reputation on the board.

[big toys are better]

Check out eBay. There is a nice Korona capable of over 30" of bellows draw here:

<P>

<P>

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7511115015

[eric_leppanen]

Since for now you are looking for only a wide-to-normal starter 8x10 field camera, the Tachi double-extension at Midwest Photo seems hard to beat. This camera has 550mm of extension, so it would seem to fulfill your requirements while having some room to grow.

 

With regard to lenses, I think Edward's suggestions above are very good. Midest Photo has a 9+ 240mm G-Claron for $449, and there is a 210mm Computar on Ebay right now at:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=30076&item=7510963345&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

 

I suggest you initially buy one lens and hold off buying the second until you have more experience with the camera (i.e., get familiar with the 8x10 aspect ratio, get a feel for how much movement you will want, etc.).

 

By the way, Midwest Photo is a great place to do business. Jim will take good care of you.

[christopher perez]

You might try scrounging around your local area photo swaps. Over the past several years I have regularly come across complete working "systems" of 8x10 gear for around $300US to $500US.

 

Typically the cameras are Ansco, Kodak 2D, Burke and James, or Korona and tend to be in surprisingly good condition. Film holders, carrying case, and 300mm lens in shutter included. The lenses are typically of tessar formula. I bought one such system that came with a mint 12 inch Kodak Commercial Ektar. For contact printing, just about any half way decent lens will do.

 

Taking such an approach might ease the entry fee and allow you to try it out before you moved on to more expensive gear. Some photographers I have known felt no need to "move up". YMMWV. :-)

[edward_kimball]

I wouldn't pay that much for the Korona. The Tachihara only has 23 inches of extension but I don't see how you would need more.

[edward_kimball]

I was refering to the $600 opening bid on the camera R Hofland mentioned.

[big toys are better]

For lens choices, you can find lots of 300-305mm lens and some 450-480mm on eBay and elsewhere. The G-Clarons and equivilants are good choices for 8x10 in the 210mm and especially the 240/270mm range. Being relatively small and light, they work well for roughly duplicating the lens choices many of us made for 35mm film-- 24mm, 28mm, 35mm and 50mm. You can get ultrawide results by using either true (but very large and heavy) 8x10 wide-angles in the 150-165mm range, or getting ones more reasonably designed for 5x7 (90-120mm) and not using them at infinity or with extensive movements.

 

However, in reality most 8x10 users do not use really ultrawide lens (except for specialized commercial work)-- I seldom see anything shorter than about 200mm used in the field, and those are usually not of the large modern variety like the big Super Angulons and Grandagons. Old Ektars, Raptars, Angulons and the like as well as G-Clarons are far more common and compact The longer lenses in the 300-360mm range are also far more common, whether the old designs or modern multicoated units.

 

In fact, I'll bet most 8x10 owners don't use more than 2 lenses with their cameras, much less own more than that given the cost factors! I started out with an old Raptar and then a slow 300mm Apo and grew it from there-- with the collection designed largely for broad multi-format use. IF you skip the smaller sheet film formats, start with a 355-360mm lens if at all possible since that is more of a true "normal lens" for 8x10 and allows you to then go for a modest wide-angle like a 240-270mm Apo from Fujinon or Schneider. IF you want to go still wider, a 210mm G-Claron will just make it in coverage and is far cheaper and lighter than most of your shorter lens choices. If you end up with a 300mm as your normal then the 210mm is a better second lens.

[ed_pierce2]

Another vote for Jim at Midwest Camera, I highly recommend him.

 

Nobody's mentioned tripods...you'll need a good one, and that generally means a heavy one. All the effort and expense of using 8x10 is wasted if the camera won't stay still. The old 'heavy duty' Zone VI units are very good but quite heavy. They show up on the auction site pretty often.

 

I started using 8x10 last year, and spent about 2K for a used Zone VI camera and tripod; had to find a heavier Bogen head, a new Nikon 450 lens, and several film holders. I already had everything else from doing 4x5. Save up your cash and good luck, and have fun...it's great.

[big toys are better]

I'd add that the 450-455mm and longer lenses, though increasingly on the more expensive side, will provide a very pleasing perspective to an 8x10 image. IMHO, the downward steps from there are 270mm and 200-210mm, but the upward stretch is expensive indeed, maybe a 600mm but more likely those new and very expensive Schneiders.

 

OF COURSE, YOU NEED SUFFICIENT BELLOWS DRAW TO USE THOSE LENSES TO BEST ADVANTAGE. MY BEAT UP OLD B&J (WHICH COST ME ABOUT $500 A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO, INCLUDING A 4X5 BACK AND SECOND EXTENSION RAIL) DOES OVER 30 INCHES WITH THE SECOND EXTENSION, ALTHOUGH IT'S A BIT HEAVIER THAN A KORONA OR THE MORE MODERN COMPACT DOUBLE EXTENSION UNITS. I'D CHECK OUT THE BACK-FOCUS DISTANCES OF THE LENSES YOU MIGHT DECIDE TO PURCHASE SINCE THAT WILL DETERMINE JUST HOW CLOSE YOU CAN FOCUS WITH THE LONGEST BELLOWS DRAW OF YOUR CAMERA. A 300-360mm LENS WILL NEED A LOT OF DRAW FOR CLOSEUPS, AND A 450mm JUST AS MUCH FOR INFINITY FOCUS, SO 500-550mm (20-22 INCHES) OF DRAW ISN'T MUCH OVER THE BARE MINIMUM FOR THOSE CHOICES. A TRIPLE-EXTENSION (30-33") CAMERA LIKE A TOP LINE Z6/WISNER OR THE B&J/KORONAS WITH THER EXTRA EXTENSION RAILS WILL GIVE YOU A LOT MORE OPTIONS OVE3R THE YEARS AND PROBABLY NEVER BE A BAD INVESTMENT GIVEN THE GROWING DEMAND FOR VERY BIG SHEET FILM CAMERAS.

 

If I were to do it all over again, I'd get a 600mm, 355/360mm, 270/240mm and 210mm, with all of them in the "compact" or "apo" style from Schneider, Nikon or Fujinon. Add the really small 150mm G-Claron on a recessed lens board (I conveniently have most of my lenses mounted on 4x4 Calumet style boards plus adapter boards for my B&J cameras), a 4x5 back plus the necessary roll film backs and you could competently do everything from 6x7/6x9/6x12/6x17 and 4x5 to 8x10 with the camera, and most likely still be able to cart it around for a day trip into the field.

 

BTW, there are some good and relatively inexpensive carbon fiber tripods around (like the ~$300 Giottos) which will do well enough for 8x10 field cameras, especially if you use a good heavy duty head and also religiously add extra weight to the unit when in use (like a camera bag hanging of the lower part of the head). Bring along a small monopod or lightweight tripod with a ball head and you can use it to provide valuable extra support when you fully extend your camera rails.

[edward_kimball]

R Hofland, I will be the first to admit that a double extension camera is not for everyone but it seems to me (correct me if I am wrong) that Peter is very likely to be a two lens man, a 300mm and either a 210mm or a 240mm. If that is so, I think it is better to get the newer, lighter, more compact camera.

[big toys are better]

check this out:

<p> <p>

 

<a href="http://largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF8x10in.html">http://largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF8x10in.html</a>

[big toys are better]

IMHO--

 

Almost any 8x10 will do in a pinch so long as your needs are simple and your demands small. However, I learned the hard way that photography draws you in, much like a narcotic. My old B&Js were good and fugile investments, but I'd much rather have Z6 or Ebony units if I could afford it. But that 8x10 B&J does everything I need it to do for an 8x10, just as my smaller 5x7 unit is perfect for general use with 4x5 and my much loved 5x7 film formats.

 

Same thing with the lenses. As I said before, if I were to start over, my first lens would probably be a 355mm G-Claron if I could find one, or else one of the fast but heavy 360mm units from Fujinon or Nikon, followed by a compact 270/240mm (G-Claron or Fujinon-A) and then a 210mm G-Claron. When I can afford it, I definitely want a 600mm Fujinon-C! For using 4x5 and roll film I'd still want the 150mm G-Claron plus probably a 90mm WA.

 

As it turns out I have most of my bases already covered except for the really long and really short options. There are a lot more options for 8x10 film in the 300mm and 450-480mm ranges, but that might then mean carrying 300mm, 450mm and 600mm lenses along with the wider options (even though the wonderful G-Clarons and Fujinon-A are relatively small and light.) For field use I'll still aim for the 600mm, keep the 300mm and shorter compact/apo lenses in the kit, and perhaps someday get a fast 360mm and/or 450-480mm for the stable just to provide really big wide-angle ULF coverages (in the 500mm circle range-- just enough for the 7x17 and 8x20 films).

 

That's the problem with using a variety of film sizes in your work (it complicates your lens and other hardware investments), but IF you can stick to just one film size (Dare ya!), then the first and second lens choices are a bit easier (planning is 99% of successful execution)....

[dave_moeller]

I think the biggest problem with your priority list is the first two items: light weight and inexpensive. Those two rarely go together in 8x10 unless you get very lucky on an auction.

 

If you can go with a heavier camera, then things become much easier. Personally I use a Calumet C1 (the magnesium model); although it's no lightweight it's still possible to carry it quite a distance if you're willing to try. Two things that are very important are a sturdy tripod (which won't be cheap, but needn't break the bank...check Berlebach for some great deals) and a properly fitted backpack. A backpack that gets the weight of the camera onto your hips and off of your back will help a lot in moving a heavy camera.

 

As to lenses: I find that I tend to shoot with longer lenses as I use larger formats. On 35mm most of my shots are from 24mm to 50mm focal length. On 6x7, I find myself shooting primarily with 90mm adn 140mm lenses. With 4x5, I shoot a lot with 210-250mm. On 8x10, my favorite lens is a 480mm (equivalent to an 80mm on 35mm). Although I have lenses in 150mm, 210mm, 250mm, and 305mm that all cover 8x10, I find myself reaching for the 480mm for over 75% of my shots. I have no idea why this is, but I've heard plenty of photographers talk about how their taste in focal length changes as they change film formats.

 

If you can find someone in your area to "shadow" for a day or two to see how the 8x10 works and how you feel about their lenses, you might get a better feel for what lenses would make you happy.

 

I applaud your move straight to 8x10 instead of 4x5. Although I love my 4x5 kit, I wish I'd moved to 8x10 straight away. Nothing beats a contact print, and 8x10 is a great size for contact printing.

 

Good luck with your search.

[peter_zakos]

Many thanks again to all who contributed a response.

Peter.

[ryan_mcintosh]

If your doing 8x10 contact prints, make sure you are printing on Kodak AZO contact paper. Here is a link to check it out. www.MichaelandPaula.com