Which DSLR

[larry_s1]

My most demanding subjects are ballet and other performances. I need

high ISO (1600/3200) giving the low light, even with fast lenses. I

am expecting to buy a DSLR and was waiting for a better D70.

 

Ignoring the D2x and realizing low noise in either RAW or JPEG is a

very hgih priority what should I consider? Will the D2h fit the bill

and worth the extra money. Fuji S3? D1x? Stick with film? (D2x is

out and so is Canon.)

[rob_malkin]

Get a D2H while you still can. Its 2000 us dollars.(I am guessing that your in the states)

(here in the UK we get to pay 4000 us dollars!!)

 

Get a D2H and put the rest of your money to a 200mm f2 AFS VR.

 

r

[ShunCheung]

The Fuji S3 is a very slow camera, in terms of AF speed, frame rate, etc. It may work in a studio but not for ballet. Given your restrictions, I probably would go with a D2H although I am not sure how great it is at those very high ISOs.

[eric friedemann]

Larry, I haven't compared all the cameras you mention at 1600-3200. I can tell you that, shooting in RAW and doing the right post-camera processing (Neat Image and PhotoKit Sharpener), I get better results at ISO 1600 with my D100s than I ever got with 35mm color neg or slide film at ISO 1600.<div></div>

[lukas_kisiel]

Larry, I am using D70 for performances and, at 1600, with above mentioned post processing it works fine. For sure better than film because you can control white balance. The trick is to turn off in-camera sharpening and sharpen after noise reduction. Here are some samples, not high quality, just to demonstrate -<p>

<a href="http://www.laangas.com/photo/lissafiddle">http://www.laangas.com/photo/lissafiddle</a><p>

 

Canon 20D has lower noise at 1600 but it's shutter is so loud I wound feel inappropriate shooting small venues. What I do is small folk/rock/jazz clubs, where the sound is not as loud as large venues, and D70 has a reasonably discreet sound for those settings. I think shooting ballet is similar.

[larry_s1]

One issue with the D70 is its max ISO of 1600. I must say I like the cost and weight of the D70 (hate the small viewfinder) but like the speed of the D2h. Not sure about noise.

 

Thanks all.

[ShunCheung]

Larry, not sure you rely on AF or not, but if you need fast AF in dim light, it might rule out the D70, D100 and Fuji S2/S3. Ballet is not exactly sports type action, but your subjects won't be still either.

[eric_m4]

Hi Larry,

 

I'm going through a similar dilemma. I think images will look fine with a Canon 20D or Nikon D70. The problem shooting performances is speed. I THINK the canon 20D shoots 5 frames per second, not positive. I know the D70 only shoots 3 frames per second. I've never shot ballet but I have shot sports and 3 frames per second can be pretty slow, especially if your work depends on those peak moments of action. I've developed a good sense of timing to capture those special moments but no matter how good your timing is there will be moments where you were a little ahead or a little behind. It doesn't have to be a fast paced sport for you to miss peak action. For my studio stuff the D70 is great. But for action shots, its hit or miss. D1x is also 3 frames per second. I would go for the D2h. By the way, a used D1h is pretty cheap and fast and file size isn't really that small. I've heard if the file size is too small Genuine Fractals can do wonders. I've never tried it but that's what they tell me. I'm gong to borrow a friend's D1h and print at various sizes. If the image holds I'll definitely pick one up.

 

Good luck,

Eric

[bryan_lardizabal]

In general, the final photographic performance for most higher end DSLR's is to the level of attaining an excellent 11"x14" print or bigger. Noise can always be corrected in PS or other image editing software if you shoot at a high ISO -- IMO, this is a minor issue.

 

The D1x & D2h are very good options for now, and would serve well for under $2k

[larry_s1]

Shun, Eric

 

I use an N70 and N80 and the AF speed (I need AF big time) seems fine to me. But there are times where I miss something because the camera is not ready or I think my AF is behind. I don't look for FPS since I time my shots and I don't get it in one try, motor drive and such won't help.

 

As I noted, speed is one reason I was considering the D2h. The lower price got me thinking. I willing to pay for speed and lower noise and give up pixel's.

[fourfa]

some people have had decent results with shooting the D70 at 1600 and -1EV, then bringing it up in photoshop to 3200. you'll need some practice using noise-reduction plugins as the color noise is noticeable.

[greg s]

If it were me I'd have a hard time 'giving up the pixels' (4 MP) I've seen some nice indoor theatrical shots taken with an S3, but couldn't find you the examples. The S3 is rumored to be very good at high ISO, though I have been reading some threads about default in-camera noise reduction that may affect sharpness somewhat. Not trying to recommend an S3, just noting its rep for low noise high ISO with good color characteristics, etc. -Greg-

[ShunCheung]

Well, I am different. To me, the most important issue is AF accuracy. If I am getting a low percentage of in-focus shots, I can care less about having 12, 16 or more mega pixels. 4MP is ok unless you frequently need large prints. I have some doubts about the D2H at ISO 1600, though.

 

If you are happy enough with film SLRs that use the Multi-CAM 900 such as the N80, maybe the D70 and Fuji S3 are OK for you. I doubt that I would have been happy in this case, but only your opinion matters here.

[mab]

You didn't say how your images will be used. In particular, how much enlargment?

 

The d2h is an almost perfect camera for difficult shooting conditions, especially involving low-light autofocus and fast response time and burst rate. It's a professional-grade device that does what you want.

 

4MP is enough for almost any photographic task EXCEPT those involving large (> 8x10) prints or heavy crops. If your output is for the web or most kinds of printed matter, it's fine. For poster size prints, you still probably need film (and careful scanning, if using a digital workflow), and probably MF. A 12MP D2X (for example) will buy you a bit more enlargement (and more cropping headroom), but otherwise isn't as much of an improvement as you might think.

[greg s]

My S2 can drive a 500mm AF-I with 1.4x teleconverter and achieve excellent, reliable focus in very dim conditions. Here's a sample shot taken at 1/3 sec shutter speed (ISO 400) in the last possible light of day... <a href="http://www.photo.net/photo/2957543">motmot</a> I was amazed the bird didn't twitch during that exceedingly long exposure, though some tail movement. The hard part was to find a focus spot of enough contrast in the semi-darkness.

 

Acquiring accurate focus has never been a significant problem for me with the S2, and I'm always mystified by the non-stop references to focus difficulties with cameras built around that technology. Meanwhile, I look at 'some' work done with more expensive equipment and am perplexed at the OOF softness. Perhaps it's like they say and it's more photographer than camera. Don't know. Anyway, I'll take the 6 MP... it works. Cheers, -Greg- :)

[ShunCheung]

Greg, again, you are talking about shooting a still subject. Larry is talking about shooting ballet. He subjects are constantly moving (at least for the most part) such that he cannot look around for a spot with enough contract for the AF to work. By the time he does that, the spot has moved already and the composition might have changed also.

 

I have had a D100, which uses the same low-end AF technology as the D70 and S2/S3, for almost 3 years so that I know this problem first hand.

[loreneidahl]

I shoot rock concerts indoors and outdoors. The D2h is the perfect camera for this type of shooting. Fast AF , low light response, perfect viewfinder, 100% view, ability to use MF lenses like the 50 1.2. My camera lives at ISO 1600 and I use fast primes and zooms.

 

The 4mp is not a issue as not all MP are the same. I rarely print over 11x14 as that is the size of a two page spread, however the images from the D2h have the ability to create life size rock posters with ease as well as press kit photos or CD cover shots.

 

For quick turnaround I use jPG files and the wireless add-on. I have some custom software I desgned to automatically pre-process (rotate, watermark, catlog, sharpen, etc) and upload the images to my clients server. By the time the gig is done and I am packed up, my clients have their photos and I have been paid. COOL!

 

I also have an agreeement with one of my local venues that they display my shots on the overhead monitors during set changes. Guess how they got the images ? - Wireless FTP right from my camera (an laptop).

 

I also shoot RAW and the images from the D2h are more than adequate for my clients needs. I could shoot the concerts with my D1 too but the D2h is much more fun to shoot with.

 

For those cases where I need more detail that the current crop of DLSRs can provide - I shoot MF or LF systems and that is usually set shots or special cover/poster shots.

 

I love the D2h, I have shots with the Fugi and I somtimes work with more than one shooter. Dont care for the S3 as it is far too operator intensive to shoot like I need to. To but it bluntly for me the camera get s in the way.

 

I also use film too. In fact I carry a F3/MD4 loaded with film to every gig as there are some things that can be done better. For example the F3 finder comes off and I can do very accurate "Hail Mary" shots that are focused and framed properly.

[cfoo_foto]

Larry,

I've shot for my school performance for years now with D1 and D1H and I can honestly say that the most important thing is a fast AF. If you could shoot during dress rehearsal it makes it so much easier. that way, you can use a wide/moderate zoom and stand next to the stage; save you a stop or two. These are some samples I shot with D1H in jpeg with NO post processing. click on the thumbnails for more pix:

http://web.mit.edu/kinaesthetics/www/Pictures/pictures.html

 

Now that I'm shooting with the D2H, I can tell you that it sucks at the iso you're talking about and surprisingly, the D1H will yield lesser noise. but then again, I don't use any noise reduction software. btw, when it comes to shooting action, I find it more convenient to use a camera with a separate AF button.

[bill_chiarchiaro]

Loren wrote:

 

"I also have an agreeement with one of my local venues that they display my shots on the overhead monitors during set changes. Guess how they got the images ? - Wireless FTP right from my camera (an laptop)."

 

Very elegant!

 

--Bill

[jorgen_udvang]

Seems to me you have to concentrate on low light performance here. Even if ballet dancers are moving, they are not like hockey players or racing cars. The only "Nikon" DSLR camera that can give you the resolution you will probably need (for cropping, if you use a fast prime. I would), and high ISO performance is the S3. With the very high quality of the jpegs of that camera, you will probably not need to shoot RAW, which means something like 2.5 fps.

 

However, I would take a serious look at the F6 for this. That would give you speed, low light performance, bright viewfinder and handling/ergonomics comparable to whatever DSLR you choose to compare it with, and for a price that is very hard to beat when you look at the features.

[larry_s1]

CFOO,

 

Thanks for the link.

 

You noted the noise at high ISO's, but I don't see any in the link. I know the shots are small on that website, but the images look pretty clear.

[cfoo_foto]

Larry,

Those pics were all shot with D1H around iso 500-1000. didn't have time to jump to menu and select higher iso. This year, I was about to shoot the same performance with my D2H, but the shutter blew just before that so had to use an old D1H. nevertheless, a lot of the images came out good. still haven't posted them, though.

After using the D1H for over 2 years, I can safely say it's a reliable workhorse. AF from the F5. too bad they don't make 'em anymore. can't even get one used at B&H but I think keh still sells them. of course I'm assuming you don't mind the 2.7MP and fast battery drain.

[lex_jenkins]

I wish I could speak authoritatively about the S3 for your purposes but unfortunately I haven't tried it at the higher ISOs. At the lower ISOs it may produce the best unmanipulated file colors of any dSLR currently on the market. And Fuji claims its proprietary sensor technology gives it greater dynamic range than other dSLRs, a definite advantage in high contrast lighting such as ballet, theatre, etc. The dynamic range advantage is said to be biased toward the highlights so that more detail can be captured there.

 

I can definitely recommend the D2H. I've had mine for about two weeks and it can autofocus in near darkness. The faster the lens, the better the AF perfoms.

 

One major advantage to the D2H compared with the entry level dSLRs is the viewfinder. I use my F3HP/MD-4 to photograph live theatre. With the camera in a homemade "blimp box" to dampen noise (it actually virtually silences the camera, even with the motor drive banging away), I can still see the entire frame even tho' my face is at least an inch away from the eyepiece. The D2H has a similar long eye relief advantage. The finder is also very bright and free of distortion. It's a true "pro" body comparable to the film F-series (F through F6) and D1-etc. and D2X dSLRs.

 

By "true pro body" I mean it's a no-compromises body. It doesn't have any pro quality photos built into it. I still take the same crappy photos I always have.

 

It's realistic top ISO is 1600 (realizing that we're talking in film-relative terms for convenience). While it can be pushed two stops beyond that the noise increases out of proportion to any slight increase in sensor gain. There's also considerable banding beyond 1600. It's actually better to shoot at 1600 for the lower noise level, even if it means dealing with a somewhat underexposed photo. Good image editing software can really dig out usable image info from the upper shadow/lower midtone areas.

 

I've been experimenting with the trial versions of Nikon Capture 4.x and Noise Ninja. Capture does a fair job at reducing noise without robbing vital detail. Noise Ninja is better. However I'm not sure about Noise Ninja's sharpening algorithms. I may have to experiment with nik software too.

 

To minimize noise you definitely want to shooting NEF files with no sharpening in the camera. I've tried every in camera setting and none of them can match post processing software for sharpening. In camera sharpening is fine for JPEGs that will be used pretty much as-is.

 

Also, using a custom curve instead of the presets can really help capture shadow and low midrange information in camera. Nikon Capture 4 Camera Control offers a simple tool for creating custom curves that can be saved to your hard drive and loaded into the camera. Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, the D2H accepts only one custom curve at a time. It would be nice to have access to several custom cruves for use in various lighting conditions. (If anybody knows a workaround for this please let me know.)

 

As for a film camera, I can certainly recommend the F3HP/MD-4. Mine has served me well. I use it in aperture priority AE mode inside the blimp box and even in tricky stage lighting I consistently get good exposures. Of course, it helps to use a fast, forgiving negative film, whether Tri-X, Delta 3200, Fuji Superia X-tra 800 or whatever you prefer.

[mark newcombe www.mcnphoto]

Here is one from my D100 at 2.8 1600 with the stanard crapo light available.<div></div>

[greg s]

Ballet should generally be easy... it's the high ISO vs noise characteristics of the sensor that will be the main consideration/issue. Good luck not matter what your choice! -Greg-