D70 or D70s

[ronbudway]

Is it worth waiting a couple of weeks and paying more for the D70s? It has cable

release ability, a bigger eyecup, and a better battery. Don't really care about any of

those upgrades, are there others I am missing? I am aware of the firmware upgrade.

 

I was just looking at pricing for the two cameras at the B & H web site and noticed

that when you add up the rebate and the B and H discount the D70 with kit lens is

$220 U.S. less than the D70s (which they have listed) with lens.

 

Is it safe to assume that the D70s will be sold at full price for at least a little while?

 

Thanks.

[ronbudway]

Oh, and I'm also aware of the larger screen.

[ShunCheung]

First of all, your mileage may vary. But if there is a $200 difference between the D70 and D70s, I would take the D70 and pocket the $200 difference.

 

For one thing the differences between the two are fairly minor, and all firmware differences can be upgraded on the D70. In another 2 years, both of them will be "old" models anyway.

[eskoufos]

agree with Shun, plus I have a feeling by looking at the specs & pictures that the new kit lens that would be bundled with the D50 and D70s will not be as good as the current 18-70 lens...

[larry n.]

If you ever decide to sell, the D70s will have better resale potential.

[ShunCheung]

Apparently the new 18-55 DX cheap "kit lens" will only be bundled with the D50. The D70s will continue to be bundled with the original prosumer 18-70mm DX kit lens. Of course, nothing prevents you from buying bodies and lenses separately to form your own combinations, but prices might not be as good as those pre-packaged bundles. (Perhaps initially they will only be available as bundles, but eventually those should all be available as individual items.)

 

We really should wait for some test results. But as far as I can tell, the differences between the D70 and the newer D70s are minor. I might be willing to pay an extra $50 for the newer model but not more.

 

I can pretty much assure you that re-sale value for either model will be poor in a couple of years. You might be able to get an extra $20 for the D70s, but the difference will not be nearly as big as the original price gap.

[vivek iyer]

I agree that it is better to wait and decide.

 

The new D70s is purported to have lower noise levels compared to the D70. With D70, there are occasions where the image quality is less than desirable (nothing to do with focus, etc, etc). The noise could be the source of that problem. Apparently, this has been improved in D70s. If this is true, it is truly worth a serious consideration over the D70. Also, in D70, speeds over 200 ISO show a big jump in noise levels. I, almost never, use the camera at speeds other than 200.

[lukedavis]

Less noise in the D70S would be a truly magnificent improvement. I don't want to delve too much into the N vs. C topic, but IMO, where the Canon 20D has the biggest advantage over the D70 is at high ISO's, not the 2 extra megapixels of resolution. I could care less about 8MP (I don't make prints larger than 8x10, usually), but I definitely care about the fact that I feel like I'm shooting with film again w/the D70 because I can't go over ISO 320 without things getting too noisy.

[umd]

Claimed high ISO noise advantage of Canon cameras is an artificial one, CMOS sensor has more noise to begin with and Canon eliminates noise by employing noise reduction on the raw image, at the cost of injecting other artifacts. You can achieve the same thing in postprocessing if you want.

[marcofrancardi]

... and if, as i understand, basic hardware is the same in both cameras (besides minor details), it is quite possible that less noise in the 70s has been achieved through firmware elaborations. Maybe the same enhancement it's in the upgrade too...

[vivek iyer]

I do not know about the claims of Canon DSLR or how lower noise reduction is achieved (I am not privy to either information as some appears to be- ofcourse any BS against Canon is allowed even if totally unfounded).

 

The purported D70s lower noise reduction appears to be from hardware upgrade (ie CCD).

 

Use of an additional noise redution programme to reduce noise sucks and Nikon Capture is not my favorite to do that either.

[larry n.]

"The purported D70s lower noise reduction appears to be from hardware upgrade (ie CCD)."

 

Where did you see this?

[vivek iyer]

Normam,

 

Read the preview link given in this thread:

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00BuPm

[umd]

It is not MY (unfounded) claim that Canon employs noise reduction on raw image, its their OWN statement in their product announcements. In their 1D-MkII announcement they mention "on board noise reduction circuitry", which isn't some kinda magic but a chip with noise reduction software etched in. You can't diminish noise without boosting the signal beforehand, even then it can't be totally eliminated. All you can do is to look for certain patterns that you think is noise and "smoothen" those patterns, of course while doing that you also eliminate portions of signal that resembles noise and corrupt the signal to some degree. In imaging this translates to losing resolution, probably thats why 1D-MkII is criticised for its soft output. Note that sharpening in the post processing cant't put the lost detail back, just makes the image look sharper to us human beings.

 

Noise is something very stubborn in every branch of electronics, In 60'es IBM was working on a project to eliminate noise altogether from communication lines, a mathematician named Benoit Mandelbrot shown that this is not possible and any attempt at that would be futile, IBM then cancelled the project. Btw Mandelbrot is known for his contributions to fractal geometry, and noise fits in to fractal model very well.

[umd]

<i>Use of an additional noise redution programme to reduce noise sucks and Nikon Capture is not my favorite to do that either.</i><br><br>

 

Not in my experience. NeatImage works very well unless you set too agressive parameters. It also worked very well for film grain.

[vivek iyer]

I wonder how exactly the noise reduction is achieved in D2Hs and D2X?

 

While we are guessing and interpreting what one maufacturer claimed, my guess is:

 

Nikon and Sony have secretive CMOS technology unavailable to others.

[lukedavis]

Umit,

 

I've heard a lot of people make the claim that the D70 at high ISO sensitivities is the same

as 20D because the 20D simply uses a more agressive noise reduction algorithm and that

the D70 can hence achieve equivalent results if a similar post-processing noise reduction

techinique is applied the the D70's files. This is not correct. Even with an excellent noise

reduction program, the D70's files are nowhere near that of the 20D's (detail is lost in the

noise reduction process, unlike the 20D's high ISO files) -- it's a hardware thing! Have you

ever considered the possibility that the 20D has a better S/N ratio than Nikon's CCD?

[umd]

<i>I wonder how exactly the noise reduction is achieved in D2Hs and D2X? </i><br><br>

 

D2H isn't CMOS but somehing else (lbcast) and not a low noise king either, performance of D2Hs is yet to be seen. Nikon/Sony probably achieves noise reduction in D2x CMOS in a similar way to Canon, it is just a business decision to do so.

[ronbudway]

Vivek, I just re-read the dpreview story about the D70s. It clearly

states that the CCD has not changed from the D70.

 

If the D70s has less noisy pictures is it not due to a new CCD.

[umd]

<i>Even with an excellent noise reduction program, the D70's files are nowhere near that of the 20D's (detail is lost in the noise reduction process, unlike the 20D's high ISO files) -- it's a hardware thing! Have you ever considered the possibility that the 20D has a better S/N ratio than Nikon's CCD?</i><br><br>

 

Of course possible but it is them talking about the noise reduction circuitry. Btw can it be that because 20D has 8MP?

[vivek iyer]

Ron, Check out the other "exclusive" preview of D70s. dpreview is not the final word on everything digital, is it?

 

Umit, LBCAST is not CCD, it is a CMOS variant. Just because it is called by a different name does not make it something extraordinary. D2X is definitely CMOS. There is nothing special about Canon or Nikon sensors or how they achieve noise reduction. Why should anyone care if something is a "business"decision or something else? It is my money and it goes to the best tool that I can buy.

 

Unnecessary misinformation about Canon will not help Nikon.

[larry n.]

Shun:

 

If you are looking for a thread to delete, this is it.

 

Enough misinformation, half-information and unfounded conjecture has provided here to make the thread absolutely useless.

[larry n.]

Professor Vivek:

 

You still haven't answered my question about where you read that the D70s has a different sensor than the D70.

 

Btw, Dpreview did not do a preview, exclusive or not, of the D70s. You are confusing the D70s and the D50. And yes, we do trust Dpreview more than whatever other websites you referred to.

 

As to your blanket statement that noise reduction programs don't work, that is what earned you your "professor" title.

[umd]

<i>Unnecessary misinformation about Canon will not help Nikon.</i><br><br>

 

This is not graceful at least, Vivek. Forum is for discussion, is it? If you have some "correct" information, understanding, experience, expertise, opinion go ahead. Unnecessary disrespect for others will not help anyone.

[ShunCheung]

Guys, relax, no name calling please. Once I received an e-mail complaining about the moderating for this forum. There were two complaints in that one e-mail: (1) I should not have deleted one of his posts and (2) I should have deleted another post by someone else because ....

 

The fact of the matter is that you cannot please everybody.

 

Vivek, I am still searching for a clear reference that the D70s has a different CCD. At least all the specs look the same to me. Again, for those who want details, wait until the D70s is actually available. I am sure a lot of people will test it against the original D70 on various aspects. (Ron, this sounds familiar, doesn't it?) All speculations here without facts are pretty much useless.