Leicavit vs. Rapidwinder

[robovet]

I'm getting an MP today as a second body to my M7. Does anyone have

any idea the difference between Tom's rapidwinder and leica's

leicavit ? Price is not an issue, I'm more interested in function

and durability/reliability--- thanks

 

marc laxineta

[raymond_wong7]

I have used both on an M7 and reliability has been good on both winders. The Leicavit is smoother but also cost much more. Both are quiet and just as easy to use. But you mention that price is not an issue so I would get the Leicavit.

[stephen_w.]

The Leicavit hasn't been on the market long enough and had enough buyers to evaluate. Although, there has been a post recently about some strange noise. Even if it was based on the old screw-mount version, there are not many users to comment.

 

Tom will repair his RW for free, whether or not you're the original owner. Quite a good philosophy, IMHO. He stands behind his products, which are less than half of the Leica product. If money is not an issue, buy the RW and give $500 to charity.

[greg j. lorenzo]

I've used both but have only purchased the Abrahamsson Rapidwinder. Tom makes his RW for the M6-7, M2 and LTM cameras.

 

The Leicavit is as smooth as Tom's RW's but it costs almost twice as much, has a time limited warranty and is constructed of lighter materials.

 

You can't go wrong with either the Leicavit or TA Rapidwinder but the Rapidwinder is more durable and should last indefinately IMHO.

 

Regards,

 

Greg

[rolfe_tessem]

The Rapidwinder has way fewer parts. In order to make the Leicavit thinner, Leica did

some things that probably make it more failure-prone, although they haven't been out

long enough to draw any firm conclusions on that score.

[feli]

Last year I had a chance to test both the Rapidwinder and Leicavit. I ended up with the

Leicavit, because it was about 1/3rd the height and weighed less. Luckily I was able to find

a demo unit, which made it only slightly more expensive than the Rapidwinder.

 

The Rapidwinder feels like it could take a hit from a bullet and still keep working.

Beautifully overbuilt. The Leicavit is lighter, but still feels very rugged. Certainly much

better than the original Leicavit, that was sold to press photographers. I'm not worried

about it breaking down anytime soon.

 

 

Regardless, here is what Tom Abrahamsson (inventor of the Rapidwinder) had to say on

the LUG:

 

 

Just to put all the rumors to rest; I did not design the new Leicavit M for the M6P, but I

have known about its existence for about a year and a half. At photokina 2000 I was

talking about it with Solms and I suggested that they consider making it as I seem to be

permanently backordered on mine and this proves that there is a demand for this kind of

device. Last year at photokina 2002 I was told that it would be shown at PMA together with

a ?reborn⿿ MP/M6 Classic style (with more than hints of Millennium M6 incorporated,

M3 rewind and advance lever, chrome or black paint etc.). I had some suggestions as to

the design of the Leicavit, naturally so, as I have more experience with this type of M6/M7

device than any one else! One of the points that I stressed is that the lever be less knife

edge like than on the original and also that the lock be of the ?folding key⿿ style of

the regular base-plate. The original side-swipe lock had a tendency to get snagged in

clothing and inside camera bags.

I was told that one of the design features of the new Leicavit is that in order to reduce the

height of it by 2,5-3 mm (from my design) they have gone to a 3 gear drive. The part that

engages the camera comes from the Winder M motor and this is too tall to fit with a

clutch/sprocket in a more shallow housing. This necessitates a second drive gear and a

clutch gear to ensure that the drive rotates in the correct direction. The belt drive is of a

style similar to mine. I did investigate using a chain in 1987 when I started, but having had

problems with several original Leicavit MP?s before (chains stretching, noise, weight

etc.) I decided against it. Modern technology has given us some really good materials for

these belts and also for clutches. The original Leicavit had a single action clutch that had

to be ?just right⿿ to advance a full frame in one stroke. The latest multipin clutches

engage with less than 1-2 degrees of turning and are extremely reliable.

I haven?t gotten one of the new Leicavit M?s yet, but I have been promised one at

PMA next week. It is interesting that it initially will only be available in chrome or black

paint (what about all those ?regular⿿ M4-2/M4-P/M6 and M7?s out there?) and

that the prices quoted are just about double what mine cost. I am looking forward to

getting one and putting it through its paces as well as taking it apart and study the

complexity of it.

The shell for the Leicavit M is machined from brass (CNC?d, just like mine) and

although brass is a wonderful material, it inherently is soft and flexible. The original

Leicavit MP suffered from this, as the track inside could be distorted by simply pushing at

the base of the winder with your thumbs! The inside gear train is also quite exposed in any

trigger winder as there has to be an open track for the lever and ?drawbar⿿ to

function. This will allow dirt and sand to get inside. You can design around this by giving

allowances on the track and gear-train not to jam when a grain of sand gets in there. In

the new Leicavit M there are three different gears that are exposed to this and I hope that

Solms has tried it out thoroughly.

I find the price quoted a bit alarming, close to US$ 900 (at photokina 2002 I was told

around $750??, but the strengthening of the Euro in the past 6 month has changed

that). This puts it in mainly collectors' price range, which is too bad as the trigger winders

are a boon to left-eye shooters. I don't know if the new winder will be fully compatible

with the older M4-2/M4-P?s as the drive in those bodies are subtly different from the

M6/M7 and with my winders, occasionally requires a slight modification to the profile of

the teeth in the drive to function smoothly. I will try this out when I have the new Leicavit

M in my hand.

Will the new Leicavit M affect me? I certainly hope so; Leica needs to sell them and make a

profit and I might be able to catch up on my back-order list, at last. This will also allow me

to spend some more time on finishing the first batch of ?BarnackWinders⿿. I will still

be making my Rapidwinder and there are enough M shooters out there who want a lower

cost alternative and also a match to their black chrome M4-2/M4-P/M6/M7.

Unfortunately, Leica did not take up my suggestion that they start numbering the M6P

with the next # after the original batch in 1957 (which I think stopped at #MP 408).

My only other problem is that after almost 5 years, I have gotten used to the ?wrong⿿

direction of the M6TTL shutter-speed dial and now I have to revert back to the old style of

dial. I also wish that Leica had put the shutter release lock from the M7 on the new

camera.

I am truly looking forward to trying out the new Leicavit M and also the M6P (I hope that

they will make them in black paint and 0,58 finder) and once I have had a chance to take

the new winder apart, I probably can figure out what a ?rod⿿ designed drive is!

Windingly,

Tom A

 

Tom Abrahamsson

rapidwinder.com

- --

[ben z]

Marc, esthetically the Leicavit is a little more ornate than Tom's winder, in terms of engraving and finish which match the MP's style. However I hate to be cynical but the Leicavit is a labor of profit and the Rapidwinder is a labor of love and in terms of durability/reliability my money's on Tom. And, being cynical again, could be Tom will be in business servicing them even longer than Leica.

[bda]

Stephen,

 

There is a very valid moral basis for not wasting money, and I support your idea of giving the price difference to charity. I am just surprised that considering the difficulties that Leica is going through, and that this forum is usually more than loyal to the brand, no one suggested that giving $500 to Leica for no added value is precisely that - charity ;-)

[george_b1]

I bought one of Tom's Rapidwinders shortly after he put them on sale, and after many rolls, it just continues to work smoothly and with zero glitches. A Jewel.

[jerry_lehrer]

Marc L,

 

Frankly, I have tried both, and they seem no faster than the lever

wind. I settled on the new Leica Motor M which has a hand grip as part of the drive assembly. The motor is cheaper than the Leicavit!

 

Jerry

[paul_neuthaler]

I've had 3 of Tom's -- the only thing better than the Rapidwinder II is dealing with Tuulikki!

[stephen_w.]

MAN, TH's paragraph was hard to read! I've got a headache.

[dennis_couvillion]

Marc, I know nothing about the Leicavit... but if you want to buy an excellent trigger winder and make friends with two of the nicest people you'd ever want to meet then buy a TA Rapidwinder from Tom and Tuuli Abrahamsson.

 

Dennis

[rolfe_tessem]

Feli,

 

Thanks for posting Tom's analysis of the Rapidwinder vs. the Leicavit.

 

However, although the Leicavit is thinner, I don't think it is 1/3 the size of the

Rapidwinder. Maybe you meant to say it is 1/3 less than the size of the RW, which would

be more on the money.

[feli]

>Maybe you meant to say it is 1/3 less than the >size of the RW, which >would be more on the money.

 

Correct.

 

feli

[stuart_richardson]

I would recommend that you try a trigger winder before you buy. I bought a Leicavit MP

when I bought my MP, and I have rarely used it. The only reason I have not sold it is

because I did not really feel like taking the depreciation. Maybe if I keep it 20 years,

somebody will pay a ridiculous amount for it. In any case, I am a left eyed shooter, but I

found I did not enjoy using it. It is not much faster than the lever, and I do not find myself

in situations where I need to advance the film all that quickly anyway. All it does is add a

significant amount of size and bulk to your camera. If you could change mid roll, it might

be another story, but you can't, so it is not for me.

[paul_neuthaler]

As much as I admire Tom's workmanship and ecumenical Leica accomplishments, I have repeatedly (three times & three Rapidwinders) found the Rapidwinder to be a beautiful but really unneccessary accessory. It just doesn't help me, and it's heavy.

[rolfe_tessem]

Different strokes for different folks :-).

 

The main advantage for me is that allows one to make multiple shots without taking my

eye from the finder. Some people seem to be able to do this with the standard film

advance, but not me.

[frank granovski]

Why not buy both the Leicavit and the Rapidwinder? Keep the one you like better and then sell the other one as a limited edition on eek-bay. You should make all your money back for both but you get to keep one of them.