jammed M6 - any ideas?

[jean_.]

---disclaimer - read before answering ---------------

DOn't patronize about CLA, this camera is a regular inmate at the

Solms factory, since it keeps breaking down regularly. It has probably

been CLAed more often than any other M on this planet. Period.

-----------------------------------------------------

 

my haunted M6 again is making trouble. After a few frames, the film

advance was a little stiff, but went through. One more shot, and now

it's jammed halfway. I'm unaware of any hit or fall that might have

caused the damage.

 

I could rewind the film without problem, and can't see anything

onbious like something bent. A quick search didn't reveal anything,

but I ask anyway - is this a common thing, and with an easy fix like

the jamming hasselblad?

[frederick_muller]

Maybe it is haunted.

 

No, seriously ... CLA means "Clean, Lube and Adjust", and I don't think it means "repair". Why not take it to a private repairman and physically demonstrate the problem. Replicate the problem and work with him to diagnose it. It may be something in the winding gears. When you pick it up, physically work it through again before leaving.

[jean_.]

They cla the camera at the repairs, probably after reassembling this has to be done anyway, and billed accordingly, so I guess this has been taken care of. I will see if there is a recommendable local guy in munich, the ones I see on my walks seem rather shady.

 

Heck, I walked out to take a picture I had seen while driving home. I grab the camera, walk out, take some snaps for fun, and just before I reach the location - crack! Jammed. Quite frustrating.

[Alex_Es]

Jean, this is serious if the camera keeps breaking down even after Leica has worked on it. It should not happen.

 

Questions. How many times has it been to Solms? How soon after you got it back did it start breaking down? Do you have a guarantee? If you have a guarantee keep sending it back until the job is done right.

 

If you don't have a guarantee, send it to Sherry Krauter. If anyone can tell you what is wrong with your camera it is Sherry.

 

I've had an M6 jam on my once but once unjammed by a professional service it never jammed again. My M2 jammed in New York on Christmas Day and I sent it to Sherry. Superb service.

[shambrick007]

but can we patronize you for asking "is this a common thing?". C'mon now...

[roger_michel]

get it working with a certified clean bill of health from leica. sell it. buy a new one.

[m_.]

assuming that you loaded the film properly? i said this is because that you mentioned the rewind works fine. could that be that the film is jammed so the film wind action never complete? after you took out the film, does the camera work?

[jean_.]

Sheldon, I just wanted to avoid the usual flood of CLA comments when anyone asks something like this. I have some projects coming up soon, and Leicas turnaround will be to slow for the camera to be back in time.

 

Read: I'm screwed.

 

I'm hoping that it's somethinmg trivial like the hasselblad jamming, that can be fixed with a screwdrivers turn or something..

 

It went belly up 3 times in 2 years, with moderate use, I'm no pj.. The defects are not related to each other. Can't blame leica for the sun burning a hole in the cloth, just to name one..

 

Perhaps I'll list it as defective at ebay, M6 are not very expensive these days - I doubt a repair will not be reasonable to sell it afterwards.

[rj]

Did you buy this camera used? Just wondering.

 

I would think that jamming is not a regular occurance and that you camera has a faulty part in it, something that the repair tech hasn't caught, yet. Anything mechanical can be fixed by a competent repair person with quality tools and spare parts and an eye for detail. With that in mind, I recommend DAG.

 

You have here what we yankees call a lemon. I had a car like this, traded it in quickly and sucked up the cost because it would be more expensive to repair everything wrong with it.

[michael_kastner]

Now don't hold it against me... but have you always reloaded film "correctly". Basically this is no giant feat with an M6... but if you do enough of the wrong things, that which you mention could possibly happen. Is the film edge as parallel as possible to the silvery metal edge inside? Is the film just enough into the crotch (yeah, yeah, har, har) i.e. not too high or low? Did you observe that, on shooting your first 2-3 empty shots, the crank was at least halfways under tension? Did you try and see that on rewinding you held the crank continually under a little tension too, and not let the thing fly backwards once or twice?

[michael_kastner]

Now don't hold it against me... but have you always reloaded film "correctly". Basically this is no giant feat with an M6... but if you do enough of the wrong things, that which you mention could possibly happen. Is the film edge as parallel as possible to the silvery metal edge inside? Is the film just enough into the crotch (yeah, yeah, har, har) i.e. not too high or low? Did you observe that, on shooting your first 2-3 empty shots, the crank was at least halfways under tension? Did you try and see that on rewinding you held the crank continually under a little tension too, and not let the thing fly backwards once or twice?

 

If your M has honestly been serviced by Leica itself -- at least ONCE -- then there should really be no real problems. I haven't heard of any such problems with any M6. Otherwise, sell and re-buy.

[lee hamiel]

Might consider selling it on ebay as a haunted camera kind of like the haunted cane that brought 90k recently.

 

Otherwise maybe sell it on here with full disclosure & move on to a new one.

 

Good Luck

[vick_ko]

Well, without examining the interior, it would be hard to speculate as to what the real problem is. But the Leica shutter tensioning and film advance mechanism is dead simple, and you are saying that the film advance is getting stiff, and jams. You are not saying that the camera is jamming on releasing the shutter. That is quite important.

 

A 3-gear train drives the film sprocket, and a 4th gear off of that train drives the film takeup spool.

 

The shutter tensioning is driven off the 3-gear train, but via a transfer shaft which drives a gear at the bottom of the camera.

 

External spots to look for trouble are at the top and bottom of the film sprocket. If there is dust or material jamming up the sprocket, it will increase the force needed to wind the film.

 

When you set the camera to "rewind", it frees up the sprocket, but the inner shaft could still be the source of the jam.

 

Another diagnostic - can you gently pull open the shutter curtains when the camera is jammed "1/2 way"? I stress "GENTLY". If you can open the curtains, the shutter is not the cause of the jam. In older Leica's, there are felt strips that act as light blocks, and they are supposed to rub against the shutter curtains. They have been known to work loose and jam up the shutter. Usually the old glue fails.

 

In any case, any competent repairman should be able to figure out a jammed Leica. I hope your repairs have been on warranty. I'm amazed if Solm's couldn't fix the problem permanently.

 

DAG and S.Krauter are very good; some claims are that they are quite a bit better than Solm's repair people. Try them.

 

regards,

Vick

[el_fang]

I suppose all three of my M6's were haunted.

<p>1) Leitz M6 #1678xxx, purchased used $1300.00

<br>Repair bills over 5 years usage: $1626.78

<p>2) Leica M6 #2190xxx, purchased new $1995.00

<br>Repair bills over 4 years usage: $1292.66

<p>3) Leica M6 #2053xxx, purchased new $1995.00

<br>Repair bills over 3 years usage: $1583.52

<p>These figures come from tax statements, for cameras that were used once or twice a week on average. On the other hand, during the same time period, I also purchased three used Nikon FM2N bodies for daily use, for about $300 each. Repair bills over 5 years usage? $0.

[vick_ko]

My god.

 

Can you tell me what each of the repairs consisted of?

 

I know that won't heal the financial pain, but I am curious what needed to be serviced.

 

regards,

Vick

[douglas k.]

Even before reading El Fang's post I was going to suggest that you buy a Nikon, or perhaps a Canon.

[bert_keuken2]

It could be this: http://www.asc.upenn.edu/usr/cassidy/leicaslacker/rewind.html

[jean_.]

Vick, Michael, thanks for your suggestions!

 

here's some more details:

 

Film was loaded corrctly, afaik. I could pull the lever half way and then it jammed. Shutter is also jammed, the button is stuck and can't be pressed down.

 

I could take the film out without any trouble, just rewind and that's it.

 

The curtains can both easily be moved to the right (looking from the behind the camera).

 

The curtains move a bit to the right if I pull the lever, and then fall back to previous position. The takeup spool moves freely, the sprocket is jammed and moves just a tiny bit when gently forced, then comes back tu it's current position. At "rewind" the sprocket move free in both directions.

 

I can't see anything obvious blocking anything.. I was hoping for some magic lever to press that "unlocks" everything or something like that..

 

i'm in germany, as much as DAG and Sherry have excellent reputations, the customs alone would be prohibitive to send it overseas, let alone shipping costs.

 

Douglas, a canon or nikon would be fine, if it was a RF and - best case - could take the M lenses I have. I'm afraid the Nikon RF wouldn't make much sense pricewise, and besides are quite aged by now, and lenses hard to get. Canonets as a replacement for my M, I don't know and doubt very much that such old cameras were a big step forward in terms of reliability ;-)

[ben z]

"3) Leica M6 #2053xxx, purchased new $1995.00

Repair bills over 3 years usage: $1583.52"

 

Just curious, how did you become liable for these repairs in the first three years if you purchased it new with 3 year Passport? Even outside the US they would've come with a 2-year warranty, and the first overhaul ($300) in the 3rd year would've been guaranteed for a year.

[vick_ko]

> I could pull the lever half way and then it jammed. Shutter is also > jammed, the button is stuck and can't be pressed down.

 

The shutter is 1/2 cocked, and as such, cannot be pressed down.

 

> I could take the film out without any trouble, just rewind and

> that's it.

 

Yes, the rewind lever will completely decouple the sprocket from its inner shaft, allowing you to remove the film. The inner shaft is one of the key linkages in winding the film, and it is likely jammed.

 

> The curtains can both easily be moved to the right

> (looking from the behind the camera).

 

This is an excellent sign, indicating that the shutter shafts and gears are still good, and are likely not the problem. This also eliminates the possibility of the light shield felt coming loose and causing the problem. Sounds like the shutter is good.

 

> The curtains move a bit to the right if I pull the lever,

> and then fall back to previous position.

> The takeup spool moves freely, the sprocket is jammed and

> moves just a tiny bit when gently forced, then comes back tu

> it's current position. At "rewind" the sprocket move free

> in both directions.

 

All good signs pointing to a jam in the film advance gear train. The film advance mechanism does have a clutch that prevents the shutter and film to slide "backwards", and that "fall back to its previous position" is indication that the shutter tension and the clutch is working properly.

 

 

> I can't see anything obvious blocking anything..

> I was hoping for some magic lever to press that

> "unlocks" everything or something like that..

 

I regret to tell you that there is no magic lever. Something is not right on the inside of the camera. The top cover needs to come off and the film advance mechanism examined.

 

> i'm in germany, as much as DAG and Sherry have excellent

> reputations, the customs alone would be prohibitive to send

> it overseas, let alone shipping costs.

 

Surely there must be good Leica technicians in Germany. Sorry if that sounds cynical. Maybe they are in Portugal ;-)

 

By the way, I do not advise that you continue to try advancing the film advancing. Extra force can make the problem much worse.

 

Good luck

Vick

[stephen_w.]

Good detective work, Ben.

 

If Al was a better surgeon he could've fixed them by himself, and he were a better photojournalist he would've known to take better care of his tools, LOL.

[lee hamiel]

It's a long shot but ...

 

My son's new M7 did the same thing - covered within the passport timeframe - 2 1/2 years to go - back & good to go for now - my opinion is that it's the film pressure plate "shoving" the film into the opening for the film opening if not aligned properly - hence the jamming - the film will not advance properly & seems to be jammed - gets caught up in the aperture for the film in the body & if you persist the film continues to push out & ruins the shutter curtain. Sounds like a tolerance issue & they have changed the film pressure plate from the M6 to the M7 which means that there must have been issues regarding such. My M6 does not have visible screws on the surface - M7's do - there is an adjustment for this plate on the swing out back - My feeling is that the wearing down of the old stampings has caused them to create an "adjustment zone" & perhaps your M6 was a later version - mine is from '86 & I have no problems but my son's M7 does & my guess is that since your body may have been in the transitional phase of "tolerance problems' that the film pressure plate is not adjustable.

 

My opinion and I may be way off but for what it's worth.

 

Good Luck.

[larry h-l]

Gee Fang, maybe you should consider moving to disposable cameras. If you purchase a

new Bessa R2a every 4 months, you will still be money ahead.

[ben z]

Lee: the pressure-plate with 4 screws appeared first on the M7 and any M6TTLs produced at the same time. It was never on the M6 Classic. The problem sounds like it's in the winding head. If the camera has been serviced by Leica within the last year, they should fix this even if it wasn't the reason it was sent for the last repair. Leica's policy has not been to do partial repairs, they always "adjust for good working order". Even if it's more than a year since the last service, you might be able to work something out with them. If you chronicle for them the number of times the camera has been there for service and how you are a loyal Leica customer who is very frustrated, they might goodwill something for you, it's worth a try. If not, I would send it to an independent. If shipping to the US would be prohibitively expensive, how about the UK? Malcolm Taylor and CFF Luton are names I've read frequently with great praise.

[rj]

El Fang, thats some seriously bad luck with camera equipment. Did your camera bag catch on fire or something? Should have bought a couple of M3s or m4s paid for cla's and been done with it. Just out of curiosity, about how many rolls did you shoot through the cameras?