Is the RB67 for me?

[doc_w]

I have been shooting mainly 4x5 and larger for 5 or 6 years. I don't

use this format for more casual pr candid photography, or when on

vacation with my wife. She doesn't like standing around for hours

while I shoot. I understand. I used to use a 35mm Canon Ftb for such

photography but I have been spoiled by the larger negatives. So I

have been doing my research on medium format and the RB67 looks like

it might be the one. I might also use a medium format camera for some

portrait work.

 

Here are my basic requirements:

- 6x7 (definitely not 6x6)

- hand held (I am not taking a tripod on vacation)

- shooting moving subjects as well as stationary

- TTL, if at all possible

- interchangeable backs would be nice

 

I would LOVE to get a decent rangefinder but the only one that seems

to fit the bill is the Mamiya 7 and I just can't afford one. The Koni

Omega looks to antique for me (I want to USE cameras, not become a

maintenance nerd). I have heard that the 135mm lens for the Koni

Omega is just too rare, but this would be the one I would need the

most. I have read that Pentax 67 is not a good hand-held option

because of major mirror slam (also, no interchangeable backs). I

have also read that for my requirements, the RZ might be the better

choice (I might not be able to afford one, however).

 

These are my thoughts so far. I am really attracted to the RB67

Professional S. I read here that the Pro SD offers no great

advantage over the Professional S. What is the metered prism like

for the RB? Is it worth it?

 

Finally, there is not even the faintest glimmer of a possibility of

me going digital.

 

Any comments, advice, free cameras, whatever? This is a GREAT forum,

btw. I look forward to your responses.

[eric friedemann]

1. Unless you are shooting with flash in low light, I wouldn't advise hand-holding an RB. I can see slight camera shake in a number of my older negatives where I hand-held an RB- even in direct sunlight. RBs are awkward and heavy- I would at least use a sturdy monopod.

 

 

2. I got a metered prism with my RB. Maybe it was sample variation, but the metering in mine was erratic. I used hand-held meters with the RB and, later, with my RZs.

 

 

3. Since I didn't shoot much telephoto, I eventually switched to a pair of Mamiya 7IIs- they rock. They are relatively compact, can be hand-held, have leaf-shutter lenses and are a joy to shoot.

[Ed_Ingold]

The RB is a truely manual camera. For example, you must wind the camera and film separately. While this may seem trivial compared to film holders, darkcloths and changing tents, it does present opportunities for mistakes, and could add to the aggravation of your wife. The RZ is more comfortable in operation and has more choices in lenses and accessories. The prism is the size of a lunch box, so most users seem to prefer the folding hood.

[jack_fisher1]

Have you thought about a 6X7 rollfilm back for the 4X5 field camera? That would be no heavier than the RB67, and maybe easier to carry. My RB67 inhabits a toolbox for a case, and with three backs and 2 lenses, it is definitely not the equipment for backpacking or street photography.

An economical alternative might be a 2X3 Crown Graphic with a roll back.

 

JF

[bill_dewberry]

Get the pentax 67, it's what you're looking for.

[doc_w]

Thanks for the quick comments so far!

 

To respond to a few suggestions so far, the Mamiya 7 is definitely out of the question. I am an amateur and can't possibly afford one, let alone two.

 

I have used a Crown Graphic hand-held with a 6x7 back but the cam focusing is not as sharp as it could be. When news photographers used these in the past, they shot wide open with a flash the size of wok. That is not for me. A monopod might be ok but I would prefer to do without it.

 

As for lugging it around, I currently backpack a 4x5, 12 holders, a spot meter, three lenses, dark bag, dark cloth, loupes, cable releases, tripod, and other accessories. I also backpack an 8x10 with a lens the size of an RB body and a tripod that would hold a widescreen tv, but with fewer holders and accessories. An RB with one or two lenses would be nothing in comparison.

 

I would like to hear more on the capacity of the RB to be hand-held. This and the 6x7 format are the major criteria. If it is a lousy candidate for this, maybe I will have to stick to 35mm. Darn.

[fernando_libenson]

If you like big negative rangefinders, maybe the answer is a Fujica G690BL or GL690 (big 6x9 negatives, interchangeable high quality lenses, solid construction, for much less the price of a Mamiya 7.

[mag_miksch]

Go with the RB 67 proS, its not that heavy, camera with back and 127mm lens has about 2.7 kg, my Nikon F3 with MD4, DA-2 finder, MK-1 grip and 135/2 was the same. Pentax 67 is about the same, but lacks interchangeable backs. Also you can attach a grip to the RB and with this its a pleasure to operate handheld. And the Mamiya cameras and lenses are very cheap this days as there are a lot on the market, they were used by wedding shooters and now this guys mostly have changed to digital. A big advantage is the unique revolving back, you switch from portrait to landscape with one handmove. I havent had a prism finder, but a porro, metering was good, but I prefer the waistlevelfinder, in the prisms is a bulky glass with some weight. Compared to a LF the RB is much easier and quicker to operate, I have had a 6X9 Graflex before, not a LF, but to operate like one, and if you are used this handling a RB is a point and shoot. Go with the RB proS, it comes with the advanced waistlevelfinder, the RB pro SD only has little larger diameter in mount, so you can fit 3 lenses you cannot fit to RB proS, the 75mm shift, the 140 macro and a very long tele. only other difference is, you can put your slider into the backside of the back , but you can use this newer back on the RB pro S also. Not so good is the RB pro, there you can forget to remove the slider or to wind the film before shooting, with RB proS this is not possible. Compared to the RZ the RB has little more weight, but it operates completly without accus and so in the field they have the same weight. RB body is all brass, RZ plastic. Go with the RB proS, start with the 90mm lens, its a very good general tool, and buy some others as you find good deals on the auction site. All lenses are very good, so look for the 180 and the 65 additional, the 50 is very wide, compares to 24mm in 35mm system. Also very good and the cheapest is the 127, but I dont use it a lot, its kinda inbetween, not long, not wide. And start with a waistlevelfinder, its a pleasure.

[christopher perez]

Either a RB or RZ might do well for you.

 

I have a similar challenge. My wife doesn't like standing around waiting for me to work in 4x5 or ULF while we're on vacation. So I've taken to carrying 6x7 Mamiyas. If you can't afford a "7", then a RB or RZ are priced "right" these days. Complete kits can be shockingly inexpensive.

 

When I work with a RZ, even with a light weight tripod (which is advisable) I barely break my stride and bliss in marriage is maintained. :-)

[bob_cook]

I have used both an RZ Pro II and a Pentax 67II with AE finder. For handheld work the Pentax 67 wins hands down. Mirror slap is not an issue - if you are hand holding, the shutter speed is too high to be affected, and your hands damp any vibration from the mirror. The RZ is much more difficult to use hand held. With waist level finder, you have a reversed image; add a prism finder and it is much heavier. Plus, the Pentax is easier to use for vertical compositions - no messing around turning the back.

[jonathan_brewer1]

You can buy a 6x7, or 6x8 powerback for your RB and you then you only have to cock the shutter and fire, the back will wind to the next frame, these are expensive new, not that much more than a regular back used, you then have a manual camera with no need for batteries, that essentially works like an RZ, much is made of the weight difference between the RB and RZ, the difference is all of 8 onces.

 

Get a multi-angle grip which helps to handle the camera even if its on the tripod, I like the heavier cameras in the sense that it helps to damp vibration. This cameras been made forever, there will always be parts and somebody to repair these cameras.

[todd_k.]

Bronica GS-1

[doc_w]

Bob, this is really interesting. Initially, I had my eyes on a Pentax 67, but every report I read on the net said that it simply could not be hand held effectively because of the mirror. How fast does the shutter speed have to be for the Pentax 67 to be hand-held. For that matter, same question for the Rb67. Weight is not an issue, I don't think. I have used a Pacemaker and Super Graphic hand held and both weigh in at about 6 lbs with lens. As for the reversed image, with LF it is reversed AND upside-down, so this is actually a step up from that(although living that way HAS scrambled my brains).

[eric friedemann]

Frankly, the only reason I would buy an RB variant camera at this late date would be to use it with the 6x8cm motor back Jonathan references. Unfortunately, the 6x8cm version of the motor back (there's a 6x7cm version, too) is relatively rare, selling in the $500 range used and $750 new:

 

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=33832&is=REG

[bob_cook]

Don - I think hand holding is a "your mileage may vary" kind of issue. I've successfully hand held my P67 with 400 speed film and a 90mm lens down to 1/60 of a second. But, I don't do it often because I almost always use a tripod. And if sharpness is critical I think you need to adjust expectations based on focal length and film speed. I just think that a 35mm style 6x7 is easier to use than an RB or RZ. You can press the Pentax against your forhead, much like a 35mm, and cradle with your hands. The release is right where you expect it to be. That said, I do all my medium format hand held photography with a Mamiya 6. But you said no 6x6 in your original post.

[paulh]

If you really want to handhold, do 6x7 and can't afford a Mamiya 7 there are a some other RF options.

 

1. A Mamiya Press camera, like a Universal or Super. You have a choice of backs for different formats, plus some decent lenses. Agreed, they are a bit "odd" in shape, but they are eminently hand-holdable. They seem to be able to take a beating too!

 

2. A 2x3 Century Graphic or similar. Not too heavy, choice of formats, choice of lenses and very hand-holdable. You can probably use some of your 4x5 lenses too. Pretty simple mechanically too.

 

3. The Fuji 670 rangefinder. Fixed lens, fixed back, cheaper than the Mamiya, but AFAIK no meter.

 

4. A left-field option would be a 6x9 folder with uncoupled or coupled rangefinder. Obviously you are looking at fixed lens, fixed back, etc., but they are very portable and capable of good results.

 

Paul

[mag_miksch]

...You can press the Pentax against your forhead... I press my forehead to the waistlevelfinder^^

[terry_stedman]

I have, use, and love my RB67 pro-s. However, if you want a MF solution for vacation/candid shooting, and no tripod, I cannot suggest the RB67. While I shoot handheld with it all the time, it is nowhere near comparable to 35mm cameras in terms of ease of use or shooting style. If you want something that is a compromise between LF quality and 35mm ease of use, definately go for:

 

A rangefinder - the Mamiya 7 (ourfit from KEH in excellent condition - $1,340), or maybe a Fuji option (GW670III with attached 90mm lens, in excellent plus condition - $889)

 

The Pentax 67 - I don't believe that stuff about mirror slap on slower shutter speeds - the Mamiya RB should have a heavier slap and I don't have a problem with it. A bargain condtion 67 with ttl and 105 lens is $516.

 

645 camera - Hey, I know its smaller than 6X7, but its definately better than 35mm, and have all the things you want in a body thats as easy and quick as a 35mm camera. If you find that what you want out of a 67 camera is too expensive, then this is better than sticking with 35mm.

[dave_moeller]

If you're willing to meter manually and you don't mind the weight, I think the RB with the waistlevel finder is an excellent travel camera. Get yourself a wide strap. When you're ready to shoot, pull down slightly on the body of the camera with your hands while you pull up slightly on the strap with your neck. The mirror on the system is well damped; this combined with the momentum provided by the weight of the camera and the position I described above makes hand holding a breeze. I've successfully shot at 1/15th this way, and the negatives are sharp. 1/60th or faster isn't a challenge at all. Holding the RB steady with a prism finder is a much greater challenge.

Given the fire-sale prices of RB equipment these days, you can put together a very complete system for the price of a Mamiya 7 body.

 

The only thing I don't like about my RB is the mirror lockup procedure. It's not that it's difficult, just that it's annoying. But it does work, and for macro work it does make a difference. (Since the RB bodies come with bellows, all lenses are macro lenses to some extent. It's a great camera for close-up work if you have a tripod handy.)

 

You should be able to get an RB Pro-S system with a 120 back, 90mm lens, and waistlevel finder for around $400. If you try it and decide it's not for you, chances are you're not going to lose much money selling it. The prices for the RB equipment seem to have finally stabilized. (About a year ago I was able to pick up the system I just described for $330...prices have risen slightly in the last year.)

 

Be well.

[flying_tiger]

Comparing with a Hasselblad or Bronica, RB or RZ67 are really monsters. They big, heavy and are not intended for handheld photography. It's a studio or on tripod camera.

 

I would suggest a Hasselblad or a Mamiya 7II for handheld photography. Though 7II is not working like a SLR at all.

 

Good luck!

[jeffrey_steinberg]

Ok, I was in the same issue a few years ago. I have an RZ for at home/studio and wanted large (6x7) negs while traveling. I went for the Mamiya 7II (I have read what you wrote so far, but hear me out).

 

Used M7's can be had for not much more than the $1K with a lens. If you buy overseas, they are even much cheaper than in the U.S. some of the Hong Kong dealers have a great prices.

 

If you can't swing the M7, there is the Bronica 6x45 RF which is about $1K with lens. I know Bronica got out of the medium format SLR market but I am not sure what's happening with this camera. Its a bit smaller negative size but if you are going 8x10, should not be much of an issue.

 

Just my Two cents.

[dean_matsueda]

Don,

 

Do you live near a large urban area? If so, see if you can rent an RZ kit and see how you

like it. It doesn't sound like weight is an issue for you but I don't think the RB/Z kits were

really meant for hand-holding.

 

Barring that, KEH has a 14-day, no-questions-asked return policy. As someone else

mentioned, you can pick up an RB Pro-S kit for $400... try it out for a day or two.

 

I would also put in a word for a 6x9 folder. You can get a Voitlander (spelling?) light meter

that attaches to the shoe which beats carrying a hand-held light meter. I got mine from

cameraquest.com and it works great. And some of them come w/ masks so you can shoot

6x6, too... not exactly an "interchaneable back" but... that pretty much covers your

requirements.

 

Good luck!

[chris_waller]

I love the RB67. It's very flexible, robust, reliable, mechanical - no batteries to fail. But I always use it on a tripod - it's a big heavy camera which doesn't lend itself to hand-holding.

[dr_smith]

I think you should at least take a look at the Pentax 67 or 67II. I just got my 67II CLA'd by Pentax in Colorado and they did a fine job adjusting the anti-vibration mechanisms in the camera - better than I expected. If you shoot at 1/250th, you'll get sharp results even after you've drank a gallon of coffee. 1/125th and below will require some technique to get good results, but that shouldn't be too hard. The only problem with the camera is that the body, 2 lenses, and the AE prism are about twice as heavy as my 4x5 wood field camera with 2 holders, lens, filters, etc. If I have to walk a long distance, I'd rather have the 4x5.

 

Alternatively, one of the older folders would save on weight and be easily handheld. Look up certo6 on the auction site for ones that have been cla'd with new bellows. I don't own one...yet, but I'll probably have one at some point in the future. The only problem you'll face is that you can't change the lens for a different focal length.

[john_wire]

For me the choice was the RB67 with a handle and not a prism finder. For fast shooting get the speedfinder. Hard to match all of the RB's advantages except one. Size and weight.

 

I don't mind carrying it around but it attracts attention sometimes when the 180 is attached. For those times I have a 6x6 Iskra, well I guess its the other way around, I always have the Iskra somewhere nearby and often bring the RB for the 6x7 size or longer lenses.

 

The Iskra rangefinder/Tessar lens/leaf shutter(xsync)/unit focus/meter(Iskra 2 only)/film advance/portability/ruggedness/distinctive case all for around $100 (not the Iskra 2) is hard to fault.

 

Try one, the results will amaze you.